Controller vs Keyboard in 2d Platformers?

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  • I'm really curious what your stance are on this since I'm currently facing this question in my game;

    I've been play-testing my platform game a lot recently with an Xbox controller and it has become quite evident that my game favors a keyboard at the moment, which isn't too surprising being the main way how I've tested the game thus far.

    So while the game makes a lot of use of things like "Hold down <direction> + Attack" to execute a variety of moves it does to an extent start to feel like wasted potential when playing with a controller where there's so many buttons that goes unused. Even the Dash move works in this way.

    I could easily put the Dash move on a dedicated button and then implement something else in for Down + Attack(which is currently what executes Dash) like a new attack or something. This would make it feel better when playing with a controller for sure. However that's one more key to keep track of for those who uses a keyboard to play. Adding Dash key would make it 4 keys(excluding directional keys) for the player to keep track of during combat. Then of course I'm not counting pause, inventory, map and skip key, just the essential, commonly pressed ones.

    What do you think about balance between keyboard/controllers, do you somehow manage to successfully design it so it works great for both or do you lean towards one of the two? If so which?

    How do you go about it both in design and just functionality-wise in Fusion 2.5?

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  • Best way would be to let the user choose which buttons to use. Therefore they can customize their button setup to their preference.

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  • Mapping is essential for sure but that is just to decide which key is Up, Down, Attack, etc. and not how they are used together, if you catch my drift?

    For example: In Street Fighter you don't bind an entire move like Shoryuken to button X. Since that would defeat the purpose of having to perform it by pressing a combination.

    So even if you bind all those keys there still the issue of there being an amount of them for the player to keep track of. It's appears to be less of an issue on gamepads in my experience, probably because they're actually designed for games while keyboards are primarily a tool for typing words.

    So the challenge I'm getting at is then to balance the controls so it fits well both for keyboard and controller.

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  • Its on the player's personal preference. I am testing my game with keyboard because, thats easier when testing. But it plays well with gamepad too. I have easy mechanics, so no big deal here.

    Dont forget you can't see this from your own perspective. People prefer gamepads for games as these - platformers. While keyboard and mouse is better for game that built upon mouse + keyboard.

    Since you have some combos in your game, it should be same on gamepad as keyboard, so should work.

  • I think whatever you do, the inputs should feel natural to a player. It shouldn't matter if they are done with a keyboard or a gamepad. I think a technical platformer like Jarvis is probably going to be preferred by gamepad users. If you want it to be easier for more players to pick up and just play, I would steer clear of using too many separate buttons. It sounds like you are already at 4, which is a lot for a keyboard player. I currently use 3 for Slayin 2, but am toying with how to NOT add a fourth button and instead find a combination of the first 3 buttons to handle the extra input. Personally, I find nothing more annoying than having to learn a million inputs and perform finger gymnastics to perform an action I wish were just simplified to a button press.

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  • I also lean more towards utilizing simple key combinations vs a billion buttons for each thing. It's easier for people to get into right away and less technical than say a fighting game with long strings of presses. Basically all the attack moves can be done by just holding a direction and hitting Attack. It works well for the most part, I suppose it's mainly Dash that just feels really wrong on gamepads when it's not its own dedicated button.

    The history of the Dash was very much like this;
    1) Double tap a direction: It's ok I guess... though a bit annoying to use.
    2) Down + Jump: Great! Except when you stand on a platform and the exact same combination makes you slide through and less good on gamepads...
    3) Down + Attack: Great again!Again except on gamepads where its awkward to use... And I did kill one perfectly good key combination in the process that could been for an actual attack.
    4) Dash button: Great on gamepad! And I can use Down + Attack for something else now. But it costs me 1 more key to keep track of for keyboard users...

    So with this I have 4 buttons that are actively used(again not counting Inventory, menu, pause, etc): Attack, Jump, Dash and Spell. Attack and jump being the most used, Dash and Spell less so.

    I suppose I could somehow sacrifice the Spell button and try make that mechanic work some other way but I honestly have no idea. Castlevania SOTN does spells simply moving around without holding down a "spell mode key" but that's how I constantly ended up throwing around weird magic by accident.

    Then another idea is to keep both methods: Have a dedicated Dash button if you want to use that but also allow the Down + Attack combination so there are more than one ways of doing Dash. However this sacrifices Down+Attack that could been used for something else.

    Or perhaps same as above but make Dash into Up + Jump? Though I feel that is even more awkward.

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  • I think in general you cannot feed everyone's special needs. Anyway, I think there are some rules of thumb that should be put into consideration.

    Know your audience

    older players that grew up with platformers of the (S)NES era are used to gamepads with limited buttons. They will prefer direction presses plus few buttons over many buttons. Also, fighting game enthusiasts will prefer this setup as feeling more intuitive and natural. For them, the movement on the pad/ stick has to communicate the characters moves. One great example of this is Guile's flash kick, without being a charge move it would just feel akwardly wrong, it's feel lives from building tension (charging) and then exploding into the move.

    younger players are a lot more used to complicated button setups and I think the same is actually true for many keyboard players. When I went on early access with my Kickstarter backers I was surprised that quite a lot of people weren't satisfied with the keyboard controls, as I had kept them very simple. For example there were two testers who wanted to separate buttons for dahing left and dashing right. They also wanted to bind every weapon system to its own fire key instead of switching. An I remeber a statement like "my keyboard has so many keys left, I want to use them". RTS players for example tend to bind every tiny sub-action to an extra key and if a player like this picks up your game for whatever reason, he will demand detailed options of key rebinding. I had designed my keyboard inputs as a gamepad player, but many keyboard user think differently.

    allowing key rebinding is a must have for most players nowadays, both on gamepads and keyboards

    Stick to conventions

    reinventing the wheel can be dangerous when it comes to controls. For example pressing jump + down should always lead to jumping from a platform if you use those. People are good at certain genres because of these games all kind of play the same when it comes to the very basic stuff, and if your game's working differently without very good reason it will frustrate them and feel "wrong".

    For Jarvis I would stick to the setup you outlined, it sounds well suited for a game like this. I would prefer a separate dash button too, for the reasons you mentioned. One thing to keep in mind though ist that some gamepads have a very bad read out when it comes to directions, so it's good to use only 4-directions and not 8, as this will likely make it impossible to execute precise moves on some devices (as well as on keyboards).

    edit: and I think it would feel quite irritating if you could execute the dash with a single button AND a key combination

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    Edited once, last by Julian82 (September 14, 2017 at 8:09 PM).

  • I don't think Down+Jump ever was a bad thing, but I tend to play most retro games with a dpad and NOT an analog stick. You seem very concerned with losing the Down+Attack as an input for a new attack, but have you simply considered having that new move be executed ONLY during a dash. That way your attack button is modified depending on if you are walking/jumping/dashing. The idea of an input AND a button is great as well. Personally, with a gamepad, I would put dash input on a shoulder button as I don't find it comfortable to do finger gymnastics with my thumb to try and press dash then attack. But I also like to play games with an arcade stick, so a double tap is much easier to do with that (which is the input where the double tap was more common). Double tapping on an analog stick is no fun, I agree.

    As for your SOTN analogy, I seem to recall spells were TERRIBLE with a PS1 controller as the dpad was so bad and the inputs had to be super precise. I never used spells because they were unreliable. I would vote for a dedicated button for that. D&D arcade showed just how good a single button spell could be.

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  • Julian82:
    Agreed; It's impossible to please everyone. I already see with just our posts in here that there's going to be nerve-wrecking to see what people think of the controls!

    The "sliding through platforms" mechanic I also want to keep at Down+Jump since that's how most retro games that I've played done it. It will mean that I cant put dash on it though since I kept falling down onto spikes, lava and pits back when I tried having my cake and eat it too...

    I have to be careful as to how flexible this system is as there is just too easy to break the game if allow too much customization. But I do know there's an audience out there that want to adjust and tweak every little thing til' it's perfect. :P

    Though I'm less worried about the mapping itself as it is so easy for the player to change(it should still be as optimal as I can make it by default of course!). I'm worried over the whole 4 keyboard keys however. I can play the game no problem with keyboard the way its but I am the worst person to have an opinion on this. A testing session is going to be rearing its head soon... (hopefully not like the last time I said "soon")

    Could you elaborate on how multiple ways of performing Dash is irritating? It's one of the solutions I'm considering atm so just curious to hear why :P


    mobichan:
    I'm glad I'm not the only one who wasn't a fan how they did spells in SOTN! Trying to look up D&D Arcade Spells but cant seem to get lucky. Is it like a "bomb" that you charge up over time and drop or do you change between different spells and such? In Jarvis you do point around in different directions a liiittle bit like SOTN but only short combinations of 4 directions to pick and you need to hold the Spell button meanwhile.

    I guess it could be because I am testing on a Xbox 360 controller with a d-pad that I absolutely despise(Why a big wobbly circle and not a cross? Or 4 separate buttons? Bah!) so I end up favoring the analog stick when I play, though Jarvis supports both of course.

    Actually! There is a potential move that would only be possible during dashes, it's on the icebox though. The one I have is an all right idea but ultimately a less fun move than the one I wanted to squeeze in for Down+Attack.

    Moves in Jarvis depends on input + what "state" you're in, ex: You cannot do a spin attack if you're not mid-air first. And you cannot do the ground slam if you're not spinning. The uppercut has to be executed from ground and with an upgrade, once you've taken off ground you can perform it 2 more times while in mid-air (thanks random bug fairy!).

    Down+Jump wouldn't be terribly bad if it wasn't for the fact that I need that combination to slide through platforms. I could've had that + a dedicated Dash button for those like me.

    Currently Dash is on the B button on X360 controller but this is not set in stone(hence this thread) and default mapping will most likely change.

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  • "Could you elaborate on how multiple ways of performing Dash is irritating? It's one of the solutions I'm considering atm so just curious to hear why :P"

    To a player completely new to Jarvis and not used to the mechanics, performing dash with attack + down while also performing dash on a separate button could feel like a bug. I would think: why does attack + down not execute another attack when there's already a dedicated dash button? You as the designer know the answer (cuz it's useful in combos), but a new player will likely not get the point in the first minutes, or a least there's a huge change that he'll not. I hate making tutorials and I think they can really spoil the early game, but on the other hand there's a player type out there that decides if your controls suck or not within seconds, then puts the game away forever, in worst cases writes a negative review addressing "sluggish controls, performing dash per accident multiple times, got annoyed". So if you keep the double option like that, perhaps make a tutorial where the player has to chain multiple moves together connecting through dashes between them to explain why this is useful?

    edit: my personal nemesis so far is the telekinesis controls of my Buddy droid, I iterated the tutorial about 4 times now and some players still don't get it XD That's the downside of tutorial, you make them to explain essential stuff, and then everybody skips them and complains about the controls a few seconds later...

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  • Julian: this is when you need to remember "you can't make all players happy" and just go with what you think is right. :) The problem with a lot of games that have technical fighting systems now is that you will have players who are seasoned at them and players who are new to them. If you just cater to the advanced players, then you have to develop a thick skin to the critics. If you are trying to gain the widest audience possible, you need to go the tutorial route. The trick is to not rely on a tutorial that stops the game and holds the player's hand. It isn't easy, but finding clever ways through natural play to instruct the player is always the ideal approach. In Jarvis, maybe this involves a simple sign in the background that shows a button input near an obstacle. Or display the input if the player sits in the room for longer than a specific time. Maybe the dash is disabled initially and the player gains it later at a point where you can explain there are two inputs for it?

    chrilley: maybe you really need to decide if a dash is important to the game. Is it there because you have lots of scenarios where avoiding enemies by controlling enemy distance is necessary? Are there environment obstacles that require it? Or is it simply because there is backtracking that is annoying when you are forced to move at a normal walking pace? Sometimes the simplest solution is to really decide if you need a mechanic. You could simply make a "speed" spell and have the player cast it if they need to travel faster through the levels. Or you could try a double tap of the spell button to cause a dash? Or holding left/right for XX frames causes walking speed to increase until the left/right are released?

    Just throwing out some ideas. BTW, if we had a chance to playtest Jarvis, we could offer more constructive feedback. just sayin... :D

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  • Julian82: Yeah tutorials is a whole art in itself. I'm trying to do as much explaining as I can with just the levels themselves and then poke in with the occasional help message if needed. I think in the beginning there will be a few; "Press X to Attack", "Press A to Jump", etc. And whenever you gain a new spell or skill there is also a prompt that explains how to perform what you just obtained. Then there has to be some kind of move and spell list that you can access too of course because players will forget in seconds!

    mobichan is onto something with stuff like overlays too. Ex: If you stand near a ladder for half a second or so I could have the game display something like "Up: Climb" somewhere.


    mobichan: Haha yeah, the way I've been showing the dash in my gifs makes it seem it is only there for backtracking. It is actually also there to help traverse some obstacles in the environment and to avoid enemies and projectiles during combat. Then if you time it right you can pass a cluster of enemies unscathed as well. Though during boss fights is probably where you'll be using it the most, either to get away from them or whatever they throw at you.

    So Dash I am certain of that I need. Though I am starting to doubt the importance of the Spell mechanic. Might just be a matter of tweaking the mechanic to make it more attractive for the player before I decide to throw things out :P

    And I can never have enough random ideas! I actually hadn't considered double tapping a button instead of a direction - Fusing Dash and Spell into one button might be something to consider!


    Testing(I'm getting a bit off-topic here): I'd love to bring in some testers soon once I've ironed out some things! It'll probably just be a slice of the first part of the game though(aka the least messy part). I need to implement some UI functionality for customizing controls and settings + hunt down some bugs that I've pushed off for far too long though. Basically known game breaking stuff that eludes me atm but just needs some time to debug.

    For anyone who want to help out with testing and providing feedback in exchange for full game + an optional credits slot I'd appreciate it a lot :)

    I'll most likely invite the interested people to my little jarvis dev slack channel so I can keep track of it all in one place.

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  • Sorry, I forgot to mention my D&D arcade game reference. The magic characters in D&D can use spells the same way other characters use secondary weapons. The game has 4 buttons (Attack, Jump, Item select, Item use). You select the spell with Item select and then use it with Item use. But it is a simple, one button press -> the spell is used up kind of thing. They act a bit like smart bombs in shooters. But they do require 2 buttons overall to avoid needing joystick inputs. And the game also has joystick input + button moves for attacks, so it keeps the spell/item system very cleanly separated from attacking. But that worked for the game they were making, so you just need to weigh your game's needs to the buttons you want to make available.

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  • Ahh I think I get it. The spell system I have right now can still be changed or tweaked. I think I'm onto something right now but if it doesn't work out, the D&D Arcade's way is definitely worth exploring too, either fully or just borrowing a thing here and there :)

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  • I have strong opinions about gamepads, to the point that I wrote a 5000-word article about the subject that no one's ever read, yet I don't regret a minute spent writing it because that's how much I believe XD. Despite being a PC Master Race™ guy, I think that gamepads are superior to keyboards in most genres. Actually, as I argue in the article, in many genres it's not a matter of opinion or personal preference, but of empirical fact. Though I think platformers are one of those genres where gamepad VS keyboard does largely come down to personal preference.

    But the bottom line is that you have to treat both seriously. There are people on both sides of the fence who have their favourite peripheral and will hate using the other (or will simply suck at it). For example, when I play Spryke, I feel like an invalid when I use the keyboard but a virtuoso when I use the gamepad, while my concept designer is the exact opposite: she virtually can't play it at all on gamepad, but does fine on a keyboard.

    I agree with what others have said regarding keeping it simple. Just because the gamepad has lots of nicely-placed buttons doesn't mean you need to use them. Having said that, though, maybe offer all players an option to switch between down+attack for dash and a dedicated dash button? I know that personally, if I were playing Jarvis on a keyboard, I'd probably prefer to have a dedicated key (eg. Q & E) for dash. Or maybe you can even just code in the two input types simultaneously - and people will just use the one they like, and ignore the other?

    How do you go about it both in design and just functionality-wise in Fusion 2.5?

    Managing this problem is one of the main reasons I made VACCiNE. It seamlessly combines gamepad and keyboard into a universal input system. So to check if a player is pressing left, for example, I don't have to make separate checks for xbox joystick, ps4 joystick, dpad, WASD, arrows, numpad arrows. I just check for a single alterable value - moveLeft("VACinput") - and all of those will be read automatically, including analog vales from the joystick. VACCiNE is on the clickstore and free. I've just finished the vastly superior VACCiNE 2. Its not out yet (probably out in a week or so, though won't be free) but the gamepad engine hasn't fundamentally changed since VACCiNE 1.

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  • As much as I love the work you did on Vaccine, I really wish you would release a version that is simply the inputs and has ZERO debugger code. It really is a lot of code to sort through as well as a lot of nested groups. And when all I want is the unified input system, I can't easily tell if I am deleting something the input system needs when I try to remove the rest. You also named some inputs (like Jump, for example) which might be better off named in a generic way (Button1, Button2, etc) since you might not have a Jump button.

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  • VACCiNE 2 comes with exactly that: an input-only variant.

    I tried to name the inputs in the most conventional way possible, for an easy to grasp starting point for the most people. But it's easy to change their names: just rename the alterable values.

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