Fusion 2.5 Microstuttering (moved from Fusion 3 status thread)

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  • [MENTION=12521]Julian82[/MENTION]: Perfect! Then I'd say that a sleep margin of 10ms is a fairly good value (it's what we use for Iconoclasts).
    I'll see about updating some of my previous ports (e.g. Freedom Planet) to do this, since it seems to be doing so much better.
    The maintainer of the Windows Fusion runtime could definitely incorporate this, based on the sample code I posted before :)

  • Would be epic if we could get a fix for this soon. Wouldn't mind all that stuttering gone for DISTRAINT 2, hehe.
    Could someone from CT step in and comment? Maybe Julian and Mathias are onto something and it could be fixed within Fusion? :)

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  • Would be epic if we could get a fix for this soon. Wouldn't mind all that stuttering gone for DISTRAINT 2, hehe.
    Could someone from CT step in and comment? Maybe Julian and Mathias are onto something and it could be fixed within Fusion? :)

    I think looking at the community hours we already invested CT stepping in at this point and providing some confirmation that this will be worked on is more than pending. I also updated the bugbox issue on this. The Please login to see this link. still has normal priority, although this is one of the most frequently visited threads in this forums next to F3.

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  • The stuttering problem is not only on the windows runtime like everybodys talking here, i have the same issue on Html5, also Firefly has the issue very bad. Its exactly the same kind of stuttering. On Android i havent noticed any stuttering its very smooth and the other exporters ios mac flash uwp i have never really used so i dont know.

  • Thanks for that input [MENTION=5272]DJFuego[/MENTION]! It actually helped on my system to get more constant framerates (picture 2) and alleviate the Microstuttering compared to 60/Vsync (picture 1). I took a FR of 61 as I use a lot of FR-dependent custom movements that would go corrupt on 66. I think machine independent speed also leads to frameskips (on heavier loads, at least in my experience), which would be another factor I would love to avoid. Additionally, on my tests setting higher FR than 61 had no additional benefit on the smoothing effekt. With this workaround there is still this strange oscillation around 16,7 instead of hitting the nail, but the output really is much better and I'm very happy for that tip :)

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  • Can confirm microstutter on Flash runtime.

    Checking machine independent speed and different framerates doesn't make a difference for me.

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  • Checking machine independent speed and different framerates doesn't make a difference for me.

    Do you refer to the flash runtime, or windows?

    To be clear on my side, this workaround from @Please login to see this link. is not a solution to the issue for me either, but the effect is very interesting. Seems, next to the set sleep margin of the CPU, making Fusion process more FPS than needed helps to keep the engine on its toes and avoid sleeping/ideling when an output is called. Let’s call this invention buffering XD Next to the input from @Please login to see this link. this may help @Please login to see this link. and the guys to fix microstuttering for us.

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    Edited 2 times, last by Simon (January 28, 2018 at 5:44 PM).

  • Can confirm microstutter on Flash runtime.

    Checking machine independent speed and different framerates doesn't make a difference for me.

    Same here, no difference. Windows runtime here.

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  • I think looking at the community hours we already invested CT stepping in at this point and providing some confirmation that this will be worked on is more than pending. I also updated the bugbox issue on this. The Please login to see this link. still has normal priority, although this is one of the most frequently visited threads in this forums next to F3.

    Danny said Jan 6, 2018 - "Still struggling to render this "micro-stuttering" at my end. " over in the F3 forums, page 264. I don't think it will get fixed. My hope is that F3 will not have this issue.

  • Danny said Jan 6, 2018 - "Still struggling to render this "micro-stuttering" at my end. " over in the F3 forums, page 264. I don't think it will get fixed. My hope is that F3 will not have this issue.

    I know this statement... I don’t think he tried to measure it tho, and we know by now the subjective experience is worth nothing here. The graphs clearly illustrate the issue and that other engines do better as well. If CT decides not to deeply look into this it would, IMHO, be a very bad decision. It severely harms the quality of our products and there is a huge community interest in this getting fixed. If it is for whatever technical reason not possible to fix this I’m ok with it, but some signal of serious care from CT would be really appreciated. And measuring is really easy, it takes less than 5 minutes to setup the software and even a monkey like me can do it.

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    Edited 2 times, last by Julian82 (January 28, 2018 at 5:21 PM).

  • I know this statement... I don’t think he tried to measure it tho, and we know by now the subjective experience is worth nothing here. The graphs clearly illustrate the issue and that other engines do better as well. If CT decides not to deeply look into this it would, IMHO, be a very bad decision. It severely harms the quality of our products and there is a huge community interest in this getting fixed. If it is for whatever technical reason not possible to fix this I’m ok with it, but some signal of serious care from CT would be really appreciated. And measuring is really easy, it takes less than 5 minutes to setup the software and even a monkey like me can do it.

    The reason I think it won't be fixed is... I've noticed this stuttering since MMF! It was something that should've been fixed forever ago!

  • We are looking into this, but in reality it may not be fixed for numerous reasons, not least of all that the affected users are very few in number out of the hundreds of thousands of Fusion users. If it is going to require a large rewrite of the engine, for example, then given that Fusion 3 is imminent this would take priority.

  • Simon, what makes you think it's only a few in numbers that are having this stuttering?
    I've always had it, would be fun to see someone having no stutter at all. For me, it's obvious. I'm kinda "used" to it, but it's far from ideal.

    I think I've tried this on three different PC's now, and it's stuttering in each of them. It's a while though, so I will need to retest to make sure.

    Maybe those people that have no stutter at all could measure it and post the results here with their system specs?

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  • We are looking into this, but in reality it may not be fixed for numerous reasons, not least of all that the affected users are very few in number out of the hundreds of thousands of Fusion users. If it is going to require a large rewrite of the engine, for example, then given that Fusion 3 is imminent this would take priority.

    Thanks Simon! You can be assured that nobody here demands a miracle from you guys (for example rewriting the F2.5 engine), we know you're short on resources right now.

    Anyway, I have to strongly disagree with your point that this issue affects „very few users“ and it also irritates me. If you look at this thread several top level Fusion devs are trying to get this sorted out including Chrilley, J3sseM, Volnaiskra, Schrodinger, SolarB and myself. Also, the thread has nearly 10.000 views now, just saying.

    I‘m not recording and comparing dozens of games and setups cuz this is „fun“ for me in any way and I‘m very short on resources too. I‘m doing it because I‘ve to stand a chance in a very competitive market and I just cannot afford to have an issue like Microstuttering in a scrolling platformer when there are games like Hollow Knight and Iconoclasts available. A significant number of my alpha testers complained about „subtle stutters, although it shows 60FPS“, my publisher's QA guys complain about it too and I desperately try to get this issue off the table.

    Other professional developers judge an engine based on the number and quality of commercial products build with it, so IMO there‘s no better invest for your future as an engine developer than to care about the needs of the top producs made with your engine and listen to your most expirenced customers. Even Mathias is interested in the data collected here to improve his aged Fusion ports, cuz things like this matter a lot if you have to sell your games. Games like Jarvis , Distraint, Spryke and Outbuddies will help a lot to sell Fusion 3 and keep in mind it will take years of development after the F3 release before the first high level products actually made in the new engine hit the market and can proove its quality.

    If I still did this as a hobby like the last 15 years I would not care about Microstuttering at all, but things have changed and I hope you understand what I‘m trying to say here.

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    Edited once, last by Julian82 (January 28, 2018 at 7:38 PM).

  • just to be clear only 200 members have viewed this thread. Just under 98% of the remainder after those users' repeat views are down to various search engine crawlers due to the topic having been in the "Recent Activity" XML feed quite frequently. So, the 10,000 stated is wholly unrepresentative. We understand that some users who are pushing the engine extra hard are experiencing the issue, but, then others doing the same are not. The scale of the problem is limited, so we have to take action on balance with all of this when dealing with it.

  • I know this statement... I don’t think he tried to measure it tho, and we know by now the subjective experience is worth nothing here.

    Julian, I can reassure you I have dipped in and out of this conversation several times, here on the forums, in Discord and in the Clickteam Staff chat as well as testing myself. So I would greatly appreciate if you wouldn't insinuate that my response was light-hearted or even a lie towards the fact of how serious CT are taking this.

    Simon and Yves have both looked at this extensively, as I have I, but I'm not the one who calls the shots on this topic plus, again, I reiterate, I still struggle to see it. So in my opinion, it is inconclusive.

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  • Just to be clear, the Microstuttering is also in an idle frame, and no complain may just reflect no awareness of the issue, not that it is not there. My publisher's QA guy got an idle frame from me and tested on 10 different machines, it was on every one. I myself tested idle frames on 4 different machines, it was on every one.

    I'm also totally with the suggestion from J3sseM. If you can provide a setup that does not stutter, please record it and post it so we can discuss what may be the important factors.

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  • Julian, I can reassure you I have dipped in and out of this conversation several times, here on the forums, in Discord and in the Clickteam Staff chat as well as testing myself. So I would greatly appreciate if you wouldn't insinuate that my response was light-hearted or even a lie towards the fact of how serious CT are taking this.

    Simon and Yves have both looked at this extensively, as I have I, but I'm not the one who calls the shots on this topic plus, again, I reiterate, I still struggle to see it. So in my opinion, it is inconclusive.

    Thanks Danny, don't take my comment as an attack in any way. I just honestly thought looking into this from a technical perspective was not your part of the business. Cheers

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