Piracy

To add to what I had posted before, I think it's important to note that if someone is actively seeking out pirated content then at that point I think it's a safe assumption that they really wouldn't have any intention of buying it regardless. It's not like random people are accidentally stumbling across it and then opting for the "free" pirated version.

Blocking app only because of the existence of Cydia or even Installous is unfair to many legitimate users. Cydia itself by default contains only legal homebrew apps and packages, and in fact warns you when you add a repository containing illegal files, and asks you to reconsider. Even Installous which is mainly used for pirated apps has legitimate uses too. The first thing I've done the moment I've got my iPhone 4S is to jailbreak it. Why? Because it's my device, and I want to have the possibility to change things I don't like in it. I also use Installous to install my apps via SSH, since at the moment I'm developing the apps for fun and only for myself, and I do not intend paying for a developer license to install apps on a device I own. What are you going to say to a user like me who bought your app and can't use it just because he tweaked his phone? If I were to buy an app to wouldn't allow me to use it, I would definitely never buy anything again from its creators, and would probably pirate their apps. If your anti-piracy method can harm legitimate costumers, history proves it does more damage than it helps. Anti-piracy system should be available to MMF2, but please don't implement it this way.

Quote from LIJI

Blocking app only because of the existence of Cydia or even Installous is unfair to many legitimate users. Cydia itself by default contains only legal homebrew apps and packages, and in fact warns you when you add a repository containing illegal files, and asks you to reconsider. Even Installous which is mainly used for pirated apps has legitimate uses too. The first thing I've done the moment I've got my iPhone 4S is to jailbreak it. Why? Because it's my device, and I want to have the possibility to change things I don't like in it. I also use Installous to install my apps via SSH, since at the moment I'm developing the apps for fun and only for myself, and I do not intend paying for a developer license to install apps on a device I own. What are you going to say to a user like me who bought your app and can't use it just because he tweaked his phone? If I were to buy an app to wouldn't allow me to use it, I would definitely never buy anything again from its creators, and would probably pirate their apps. If your anti-piracy method can harm legitimate costumers, history proves it does more damage than it helps. Anti-piracy system should be available to MMF2, but please don't implement it this way.

That pretty much sums up the entire problem with every DRM scheme. The only thing DRM does successfully is hassle legitimate customers.

Yea, blocking any phone that has Cydia on it will probably hurt sales of your app more than anything (maybe with the speicific exception of freemium titles). Jailbraking a phone is 100% legal, and there are VERY good legal reasons to do it. Now, blocking phones that have the specific pirate apps, that could be one solution. I would say any solution you have that will not add ANY hassle to a 100% legitimate user would be good. But the instant a normal user (jailbroken or not) has to take an extra step because you are trying to block pirates, you'e crossed the line and will start losing sales. Additionally, as was mentioned, you are never going to stop pirating completly. No matter what you put in place, it can be pirated somehow.

As I mentioned above, my opinion would be to implement something that is 100% invisible to the normal user if you are concenred. But I would caution against blocking ALL jailbroken devices, as a TON of legitimate people jailbrake. (unlike something like torrents, where although there are legitimate uses, I feel like the majority of uses is piracy).

Torrents are commonly used for open source projects to save bandwidth and increase speed. Also, I recently had to download a big file from Apple, and the download was so slow I had to revert to an unofficial mirrored torrent, which downloaded at 3.5MB/s.

I've never thought "Wow, I'm so glad my purchase is restricted so much" which is what you risk doing when you consider DRM. I would agree with the comments that it is better to put more effort into your product, your customers might appreciate it more

You have to bear in mind a couple of things if you're going to implement something like this. The first is that not all jailbreaker's are pirates. Like me, some people just want the increased flexibility with regards to device customisation. Also, if a paid game doesn't work because someone's device is jailbroken, the customer could ask Apple for a refund and just say that the game keeps crashing. The refund comes out of the money you earn, not Apple's cut, meaning you make a loss on that sale.

who cares about pirates? not me! If people don't value my work enough to pay for it.. so be it .. but I can't force people to pay for something they can obtain for free via duplication.. when a pirate 'steals' he is merely copying.. he is not stealing my phyiscal property.. (I don't believe IP is a legitimate form of property.. you can't own ideas as they're a non-scarce resource) Most pirates will NOT pay for a game, especially if they have jailbroken phone.. forget about them! you'll never stop them! IMO anti-piracy laws are just another form of mercantilism.
If I don't believe IP piracy is theft... why did I buy MMF2? because I want to support Clickteam, I want them to be succesful and to continue making great products.

I can only reiterate what others here have said, Cydia is installed when you jailbreak a phone and is not an indication of an intention to download pirated games. Cydia is full of frankly fantastic little tweaks and enhancements for iOS devices - many of which Apple themselves would do well to implement.

I used to jailbreak my phone on earlier versions of iOS as it gave me features that were only later added by Apple themselves such as multi-tasking, folders, better notifications, custom lock-screens etc. and allowed me to do things Apple still don't let you do like set default browsers, create my own gestures, run emulators, remove 3G limitations, theme the entire OS, make my device do things based on GPS location etc. etc. etc.

I also don't see the point in looking for Installous (or any other source of pirate apps) and stopping your app running as a result. This will only stop your game running with people who have downloaded your app legitimately which is not what you want - you'll only p**s people off - because if your app makes it into the pirate app circuit and a user gets it that way, your attempt at "protection" will have already been removed well before it was circulated in the pirate channels.

Rob

In reference to IP theft and the law, I do think there is a place for it. There's been times where someone has released a game on let's say PC. Then someone ports pretty much the exact same game to iOS before the creator does and starts selling it on the app store (which has happened). If someone is making a profit off of what you made I believe you should be able to take action. As for piracy itself, that's pointless to pursue it so I'm drawing a distinction there. I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water as the saying goes when it comes to IP law.

It is a fine line though. Where do you draw the distinction between a clone and outright blatant rip off? I don't really know. But I know there have been pretty shady cases.

I don't see how anyone can claim the exclusive monopoly right to a gameplay mechanic(s).. imagine if nintendo had patented 2D platformers. Imagine if whoever invented a word had exclusive rights to it, and everyone had to pay a fee to the 'rightful owner' of the idea. It's silly.. games get cloned.. so what! Forcibly preventing someone from making a game because you claim an arbitrary exclusive right to the idea only benefits you at the expense of other developers and millions of consumers.. if you don't release your game on the iPhone and someone else makes a game that is like yours.. too bad! Unless they're claiming their game is a genuine iPhone sequal/port of your game.. then that could be fraud.

Quote from DaveC

Unless they're claiming their game is a genuine iPhone sequal/port of your game.. then that could be fraud.

That's close to what I'm referring to, but not quite. There's plenty of Angry Birds clones (Angry Birds is actually a clone itself) and just because your game is very similar doesn't mean it's wrong. But if you're essentially taking the exact same game and selling it as your own, just with a title change, that is wrong.

If you made a game and I basically ripped it, maybe adjusted the player's graphics a little and slapped a new name on it and started selling it, surely you'd be upset with that. Flash games are easy to rip, and one of the cases in question involved some guy's Flash game getting sold on the Apple app store.

If there were no IP law of any kind, it would be perfectly legal and nobody could be stopped from doing it.

Don't get me wrong, IP and copyright law do need some serious reform, but complete anarchy isn't the solution. I certainly don't want someone taking a game I made and edit the graphics and name then turn around and sell it as their own.

You as the producer may not want people to edit your GFX/Copy your code but maybe other producers and consumers do. The fundamental issue here is - can someone logically claim ownership over a non-scarce resource? I say no. What you are proposing is that some third party step in and forcibly restrain peaceful, voluntary exchange between consenting parties. (but maybe you disagree)

If someone steals a TV from your home, the TV is in the hands of the thief and you no longer possess the TV, a theft of property has taken place, it's a zero sum game where you lose your TV. When someone 'steals' an idea, they are not removing the idea from anyone's possession, ideas are infinite! Likewise, if someone copies your graphics or code, they are not removing them from your possession, so no theft has taken place. The sole reason we assign property rights is to avoid conflicts over scarce resources.. it's why we assign rights to land but not to the air we breathe (in most cases XD).

Now, all this is not to defend the lowlife that blatantly copies your code/gfx/game and claims it as their own work. I would be more than annoyed if someone got rich by slightly modifying my hard work, but it would not justify me or anyone on my behalf forcibily preventing that person from selling goods (that are not stolen) to willing buyers. I think you present a false dichotamy, that there exists only two options - government coercion or 'anarchy'. In a world without oppressive IP enforcement, I can imagine a myriad of ways original producers would be rewarded/protected over the unscrupolous types.. but we're getting off topic and I'm starting to rant XD

I don't expect to change your views.. just challenge the mainstream idea that IP is absolutely necessary.. and to the people fixated on piracy.. try to channel that energy into creating a great game that people love.. every second spent fighting piracy is a second less time you have to work on your game.

To clarify I'm not speaking against piracy. I think DRM is a waste of time and effort and litigation even more pointless, but I've already stated that in this thread and that the focus should be on delivering a great product and value so people want to pay. As for the IP theft and someone selling something you basically made I'm not saying the government should be beating down on their door. I wasn't saying I think the government should get involved in the enforcement. I was merely saying that I think there needs to be a way for someone to pursue litigation on their own if the case warrants it. Having a law in place doesn't mean the government has to be the ones enforcing the law and acting as the police. Not all litigation requires government intervention, but the laws do have to exist or you have no recourse.

But I'm not trying to start an argument here lol I just made this last post just to clarify my stance a bit. But there's not much point in going around and around on the subject, so I'll just let this topic go

I personally think this is missing some very important but broader points... it's not all about IP and the debate over whether it is really theft. I'm still not sure where I stand on that to be quite honest.

Many perfectly valid business models for games include some form of in-game currency, be this coins, gold bars (even pickled stoats in one game I saw!), to buy upgrades or add-ons or items within the game as direct purchases. In order for that artificial currency to retain its value within the game and hence turn the developer a profit of some kind, the upgrades need to have a graduated exclusivity scale to them. If people hack and alter values, artificially gain such add-ons or power-ups or whatever, it can devalue this model and damage the turnover as well as the reputation of the game (for various reasons). On the flip side the greater volume of users could in turn produce more demand and decrease the negative impacts of churn and burn rate etc.

I think there are many reasons to try to protect a game in SOME way and preventing pirated copies, on iOS at least would achieve this. I'm not saying that blocking jailbroken phones is necessarily a good idea, it will exclude some users for sure. You might however argue that the negative impact of hacked versions of the software being out there could be worse than the potential losses of blocking all jailbroken phones.

It's not a clear cut thing in my humble opinion and I'd say there's certainly room and reason to look at ways to protect internal data and the application itself. It's a delicate decision to be taken carefully if you ask me.

Quote

If someone steals a TV from your home, the TV is in the hands of the thief and you no longer possess the TV, a theft of property has taken place, it's a zero sum game where you lose your TV. When someone 'steals' an idea, they are not removing the idea from anyone's possession, ideas are infinite! Likewise, if someone copies your graphics or code, they are not removing them from your possession, so no theft has taken place. The sole reason we assign property rights is to avoid conflicts over scarce resources.. it's why we assign rights to land but not to the air we breathe (in most cases XD).

Now, all this is not to defend the lowlife that blatantly copies your code/gfx/game and claims it as their own work. I would be more than annoyed if someone got rich by slightly modifying my hard work, but it would not justify me or anyone on my behalf forcibily preventing that person from selling goods (that are not stolen) to willing buyers. I think you present a false dichotamy, that there exists only two options - government coercion or 'anarchy'. In a world without oppressive IP enforcement, I can imagine a myriad of ways original producers would be rewarded/protected over the unscrupolous types.. but we're getting off topic and I'm starting to rant XD

You totally hit the nail on the head with how I think!
If you steal a child's favorite toy... then the child no longer as it, they probably will cry, and it is theft! COPYING something is not... its simply SHARING!
But what really annoys me is like deviantart... people say "do not use this or modify this in any way"
Well guess what? I use plenty of stuff from da in my games! I dont claim any of it as my own... I think that is wrong not because of copyright, but because its unfair and it is LYING (I am addressing your 2nd paragraph here). But I take sprites from there sometimes and USE them in a productive, fun, and positive way by inserting them into my game in a way that works well for me...

people might say either:

"draw your own stuff!"
well I just cant, and no, saying "well improve then" doesnt cut it... drawing is not my thing, PROGRAMMING is... and I dont want to make a developer team either, cause quite honestly, I dont want to make a "looking for team" post and employ random people on the internet who I dont know

"its disrespectful to use stuff without permission"
If I use something because I LIKE it, then my heart has RESPECT for it... and I should not need permission to show it!

sorry if what I said seems jumbled... I have a headache. Bottom line is I feel like people expect me to make games with original graphics, original music, etc... and that is not what I want! Bear in mind I am not making money off games... and it sometimes people think I would be interested in that. But nonetheless people still complain about free usage of IP, and that bothers me.

I agree with you and disagree with you on certain points. I have no problems with fan games so I don't care about people using sprites made by someone else. I do think however if an artist has their own portfolio of work people should respect their wishes on how it's to be used. Using someone's personal original art is a bit different than using Mario sprites in my opinion. Maybe that's hypocritical of me to say Mario is okay, but using Random Person's art isn't. I think it boils down to the artwork being on a more personal level for an individual as opposed to a corporation's video game graphics. Someone making a Mario fan game isn't a big deal to me, but I think if someone took graphics from say one of Nifflas' games (or anybody else here) and started making their own games with it, I'd have a problem with that unless they had permission from the team or individual who created them. It's basically a matter of respecting the person and their efforts.

Quote from Shawn

I agree with you and disagree with you on certain points. I have no problems with fan games so I don't care about people using sprites made by someone else. I do think however if an artist has their own portfolio of work people should respect their wishes on how it's to be used. Using someone's personal original art is a bit different than using Mario sprites in my opinion. Maybe that's hypocritical of me to say Mario is okay, but using Random Person's art isn't. I think it boils down to the artwork being on a more personal level for an individual as opposed to a corporation's video game graphics. Someone making a Mario fan game isn't a big deal to me, but I think if someone took graphics from say one of Nifflas' games (or anybody else here) and started making their own games with it, I'd have a problem with that unless they had permission from the team or individual who created them. It's basically a matter of respecting the person and their efforts.

The stuff I take from da is generally when I can't find any suitable official sprites of a chararacter made by a big company... then I look for fan art of that character instead.

I can understand a LITTLE more when people say its wrong to use an OC... but ultimately I think thats to protect their personal OCs from being used in negative ways... so if its used in a positive manner, that idea is negated...