Global Events questions

First of all, if you want to use change animation, enter the equation editor and type "13" for your first custom animation "14" for the second, "15" for the third, ad nauseum (there are twelve default animations). Maybe there is a bug where it doesn't name these, but it doesn't mean that a little human intuition cannot resolve this.

And second, don't rename your global event objects. Use a little crafty premeditation so that you wouldn't have to.

1. I believe that objects lose their local names when global. The same thing happens if you try to set animations for an object by its qualifier. Custom animations start at 12 not 13... Animation sequences have a base index of 0.

2. There is no easier way to do this. I would personally avoid using global objects all together. Are you trying to make a game with many levels spread across different frames? I only ask because it might be better to just create a level editor and keep everything in one frame. (or try to keep things in one frame on different layers)

Quote from Macaw

Yeah thats what I'm doing, but a level editor seems too restricted for what I'm making. I have lots of unique stuff in each frame, both in terms of graphics and code, and putting everything into one frame would just be way too cluttered I think. Its not a simple game with a whole bunch of similar looking levels with the same objective, pretty much every frame has something different going on in terms of conversations, going through doors to enter different areas, cinematics etc, stuff that seems would be really tricky to do in the confines of a single frame level editor engine.

I never quite grasped the concept of a one-level game like that. Picture a game as your life story. Wouldn't you rather go on a long adventure which takes you to many different and unique places and offers you opportunities to try many different things? A good game would offer many different challenges, and I am sure MMFD2 gives us the capacity to do this. I figured that layers were designed for parallax scrolling, not to try and cram every level into one scene, which can get cluttered and I am sure it could cause the computer to overload. I am sure I could assemble a life game like Rat Race 61/2: Enough Already! in a few minutes, but I think that MMFD2 is far more capable than that. In this case, I feel global objects can be a no-brainer: if the hero or player is to appear in every scene almost, then wouldn't that be the thing to do -- and I suppose it's less time and bandwidth consuming than having to cut and paste in to every single level.

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Yeah thats what I'm doing, but a level editor seems too restricted for what I'm making. I have lots of unique stuff in each frame, both in terms of graphics and code, and putting everything into one frame would just be way too cluttered I think. Its not a simple game with a whole bunch of similar looking levels with the same objective, pretty much every frame has something different going on in terms of conversations, going through doors to enter different areas, cinematics etc, stuff that seems would be really tricky to do in the confines of a single frame level editor engine.

It's quite the opposite. Knytt Underground uses one frame and a custom level editor and format. It features 1800+ rooms (2000+ after the coming update, the world size will be 47616x25920 pixels) 1000 unique scenery objects (probably a hundred thousand instances), and tons of NPC's, enemies and creatures. It worked best within a single frame since I decide when to load/unload rooms/images/music and not having to deal with global events where values are unnamed, or having to avoid qualifiers... it all makes life so much easier.

Maybe in MMF3 it'll be different, but for MMF2 at least the advanced user will normally want to build as much as possible into one frame.

Quote from Konidias

1. I believe that objects lose their local names when global. The same thing happens if you try to set animations for an object by its qualifier. Custom animations start at 12 not 13... Animation sequences have a base index of 0.

2. There is no easier way to do this. I would personally avoid using global objects all together. Are you trying to make a game with many levels spread across different frames? I only ask because it might be better to just create a level editor and keep everything in one frame. (or try to keep things in one frame on different layers)

^This. Once an object becomes a global event, even the alterable values change from the given name back to alterable value a, b, etc. The easiest way i've found to do this is just run what you want your global event to be in the normal frame editor, test it and if it works, THEN dump it in the global events editor. That way at least you know what's what.

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I looked up footage of Knytt Underground and noticed it was all static rooms. Where exactly do all the different rooms get stored in a single frame game like this?

Also, what if a game has scrolling and all the levels are radically different sizes?

It's in a custom level format using the Ini++ and Binary Array extensions together. I made an editor in MMF2. Making it scroll is definitely doable too, I did this in FiNCK. I would have divided the levels into different scrolling "sections", and when you exit one area, you enter the next and the game loads all its content. It should be no problem, not even with rather large scrolling areas. The hardest thing is to make the whole world a huge and continuously scrolling, because that will force you to dynamically load/unload data and objects (very fast to avoid freezes or a slow fps), but with skillful use of events, even that is possible.

I'd put it like this: working in a single frame and a custom level format+editor is always a more powerful option, but it takes lots of skill and time. Working with multiple frames is easier, and probably the best way to go for a beginner, but it has drawbacks due to MMF2 not being very global-oriented. Hopefully, MMF3 will be designed much more around that you'll want to share most events and objects over most frames.

Quote from Nifflas

It's in a custom level format using the Ini++ and Binary Array extensions together. I made an editor in MMF2. Making it scroll is definitely doable too, I did this in FiNCK. I would have divided the levels into different scrolling "sections", and when you exit one area, you enter the next and the game loads all its content. It should be no problem, not even with rather large scrolling areas. The hardest thing is to make the whole world a huge and continuously scrolling, because that will force you to dynamically load/unload data and objects (very fast to avoid freezes or a slow fps), but with skillful use of events, even that is possible.

I'd put it like this: working in a single frame and a custom level format+editor is always a more powerful option, but it takes lots of skill and time. Working with multiple frames is easier, and probably the best way to go for a beginner, but it has drawbacks due to MMF2 not being very global-oriented. Hopefully, MMF3 will be designed much more around that you'll want to share most events and objects over most frames.

But assuming that you are not some alpha nerd that has access to this INI++ and binary array me-what's-its, and you like to create something a bit more visual, perhaps using multiple frames might make sense. For me, I'd have a title screen, and something to choose a character, and so on. Even a relatively simple game like Super Mario Bros. would use different themes: the same except for underground in 2-2 and 4-2, at night for worlds 3 and 6, those giant tree or mushroom platforms for part three of the world, a castle for part 4, underwater for 2-2 and 7-2, and that bridge with Cheep-Cheeps jumping for worlds 2-3 and 7-3. I don't actually know a warehouse in the Mushroom Kingdom big enough to stash all that, and if you tried to cram it all into one frame, that's what you'd end up with: needing a warehouse-sized bandwidth. And levels in that game are not a uniform size. You would also need a blue background for the frame in all but the castle or night scenes, which call for black. And the underwater sections demand a darker blue. I haven't quite figured out if it's possible to change the background colour of the frame midstream -- maybe it is not possible. And if somebody likes lush cinematography, this becomes even more prohibitive. In simple, my room and my life is a big enough clutter, without trying to create a cyberworld messy room also.

You know what would be nice? If you could set up 'templates' of code and objects, and you could assign templates to any frame you wanted, or even combine several templates by referencing them into the same frame. And then you'd be able to otherwise code around anything you wanted inside that frame. But any events or objects that are tied to the template would be changed globally if modified in any frame that references it.

It would be a good alternative to having to code a level editor yourself.

Quote from OldLongDragon

But assuming that you are not some alpha nerd that has access to this INI++ and binary array me-what's-its, and you like to create something a bit more visual, perhaps using multiple frames might make sense. For me, I'd have a title screen, and something to choose a character, and so on. Even a relatively simple game like Super Mario Bros. would use different themes: the same except for underground in 2-2 and 4-2, at night for worlds 3 and 6, those giant tree or mushroom platforms for part three of the world, a castle for part 4, underwater for 2-2 and 7-2, and that bridge with Cheep-Cheeps jumping for worlds 2-3 and 7-3. I don't actually know a warehouse in the Mushroom Kingdom big enough to stash all that, and if you tried to cram it all into one frame, that's what you'd end up with: needing a warehouse-sized bandwidth. And levels in that game are not a uniform size. You would also need a blue background for the frame in all but the castle or night scenes, which call for black. And the underwater sections demand a darker blue. I haven't quite figured out if it's possible to change the background colour of the frame midstream -- maybe it is not possible. And if somebody likes lush cinematography, this becomes even more prohibitive. In simple, my room and my life is a big enough clutter, without trying to create a cyberworld messy room also.

Alpha nerd? Really?

Ini++ is extremely easy to use... You're literally telling it "save this text to this file, load this text from this file". Please don't stoop to insulting intelligent people just because you don't understand something (or are unwilling to learn). You're just stifling progress and creativity, even though you think you're all about being "creative", you are just putting restrictions on yourself for absolutely no reason other than you don't want to make the effort.

Also I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Super Mario Bros was programmed to load everything from the same "frame". Super Mario Bros didn't have a frame editor. I don't think you understand at all what we mean by "putting it in one frame".

We aren't actually suggesting that you just put all the active objects in a single frame and hide/show them when you need to. We are suggesting that you build a frame (which basically should be empty or near empty in your frame editor) and then you add events that can actually load/create the objects you need on the fly, in that one frame. You can also dynamically size a level to be however large you need it... all in one frame.

I'm not sure you even understand basic game design. Do you really think that Super Mario Bros was created using something like MMF? It was all hand coded, and it's just loading and displaying tiles when they are needed. It was infinitely more complicated to create levels back then.

Quote from Konidias

Alpha nerd? Really?

Ini++ is extremely easy to use... You're literally telling it "save this text to this file, load this text from this file". Please don't stoop to insulting intelligent people just because you don't understand something (or are unwilling to learn). You're just stifling progress and creativity, even though you think you're all about being "creative", you are just putting restrictions on yourself for absolutely no reason other than you don't want to make the effort.

Also I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Super Mario Bros was programmed to load everything from the same "frame". Super Mario Bros didn't have a frame editor. I don't think you understand at all what we mean by "putting it in one frame".

We aren't actually suggesting that you just put all the active objects in a single frame and hide/show them when you need to. We are suggesting that you build a frame (which basically should be empty or near empty in your frame editor) and then you add events that can actually load/create the objects you need on the fly, in that one frame. You can also dynamically size a level to be however large you need it... all in one frame.

I'm not sure you even understand basic game design. Do you really think that Super Mario Bros was created using something like MMF? It was all hand coded, and it's just loading and displaying tiles when they are needed. It was infinitely more complicated to create levels back then.

It was surely more complicated to create levels back then, I am aware. I remember I bought something called the Action Adventure Game Kit which used hand coding in C++ or Pascal which didn't make any sense, and this thing called the "tile ripper" which for somebody visually minded, it was created to break a piece of level art into unique tiles, which didn't fit together neatly. Without having the inside scoop to Nintendo's Japanese operations, we cannot say we know unequivocally what was used -- they could very well have used something dedicated and native similar to a primordial Klick and Play or something. We also cannot unequivocally know what language was used. I understand things from an artist perspective, and if you try to make the kind of lush details in a truly imaginative world, this sort of thing would get cluttered -- it would be like your set crew at a play having to take two hours or so between acts to change the scene, which would not only kill the bandwidth of the stage, your audience and it would tire the crew out pretty quickly. You're right, I am not familiar with the dedicated software that the big box console companies use, and frankly they wouldn't want me to know either. I remember reading something on this very Click community site about somebody who was perplexed by how their computer crashed after twenty layers to a frame or so.

Actually Super Mario Bros was written in 6502 Assembler... and why wouldn't they want you to know? It's not some closely guarded secret.

Also I don't think you actually understand what bandwidth means.

Quote from Konidias

Actually Super Mario Bros was written in 6502 Assembler... and why wouldn't they want you to know? It's not some closely guarded secret.

Also I don't think you actually understand what bandwidth means.

Bandwidth or memory to me means the amount of things that a processor, be it a CPU or a human brain, as the case may be, can handle simultaneously. And if you have too much going on at once, then it's easy to become overwhelmed and you cannot figure out which end is up, which task goes first, and everything ends up being processed as if it were "spaghetti code". It's like a messy room or a cluttered desk, and even a state-of-the-art CPU surely has its limits as well as the person operating it, which it is only as good as. Maybe some people are stronger at doing many things at once than I am, but it seems that we shouldn't force ourselves to do too much at once, because even if a computer CPU had unlimited capacity, as soon as the person operating it fails, it becomes useless. And in this case, whatever was used to assemble Super Mario Bros , be it 6502 Assembler, or some obscure language from southwestern Djibouti or something, is irrelevant.

But your bandwidth definition is irrelevant, because you are failing to grasp what we mean by using a single frame.

Again, we aren't cramming everything into one frame and cluttering it. In fact, using a custom built level editor and loader is probably the most cleanest method of developing games in MMF2 that there is. Your method of using lots of frames is actually the most cluttered and messy way of doing things.

I'm working on a game right now that is going to have hundreds of levels and thousands of objects, and if you open up the single frame that all of it is contained in, you'd see maybe 20 objects... most being extensions. Now tell me that would be easier to work with if it were spread over hundreds of frames and global events and thousands of active objects and backdrops.

You know how many active objects I have in my game to represent thousands of different objects? One. A single object. Tell me how that is overwhelming and messy.

Also what Super Mario Bros was programmed in is totally relevant because you were the person bringing up the game and saying how all the levels were so different and required some sort of frame setup in order to create them or something.

When in reality the game is literally just thousands of code instructions telling the screen what to draw where.

A bit of history (really worth the reading):

Please login to see this link.

Quote from loglady

A bit of history (really worth the reading):

Please login to see this link.

Relevancy, people...?

loglady. Thanks for sharing that link and I found it interesting indeed. OLD I think you need to step back and look at your relevancy for about 90% of your posts.

Marv