3D Games? Is It Possible In MMF2/TGF2? :confused:
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3D Games? Is It Possible In MMF2/TGF2? :confused:
Simple answer: No.
But you can do all sorts of tricks to create a pretty awful looking game which feels a bit 3D.
But don't expect to make a load of lovely 3D models and have them dance around in a beautiful 3D world.
Yes its possible, but I assume from your question you are new to MMF2 in which case it is very improbable that you will be able to pull it off. I wouldnt try it and I have quite a bit of MMF2 experience. If you are not new to MMF, by all means try, but it is very hard to pull of fake 3D and real 3D has only been accomplished once with a HWA Pixel Shader, and that is difficult i itself to learn. I would advise you not to try......or if you do, dont try anything really big, because there is a very low chance that you will succeed.....and that goes for 2d as well......dont try anything big until you know how to do everything.
How many times has this question been asked? Anyway, OneWingedAngel, if you can find Chansey's old tutorials, he had some good faux 3d effects. But they didn't look 3d-- they merely positioned and scaled your sprite on the screen to imitate depth. Anyone know where Chansey went? That'd be good for the klikcast "where are they now" feature...
The best example I've seen so far was Werbad's example, it shouldn't be too far down in the File Archive, it requires HWA and is called "3D Engine using HWA" if I'm not mistaken.
Please lock this post before dragonguy replies X)
I'm just trying to stop a large discussion :)
We really need a section of the forum where people can make big massive posts about a subject like this, answering as many of the common questions as possible. This gets asked so many times, and there are so many threads people could read and get so many different answers I think it'd be best just to have a sticky somewhere that explains the reality behind making 3D Stuff within MMF.
This could then apply to other common questions that have to be answered time and time again. Then if anyone actually does post about it, you just give them the link to the related post.
I guess it could go in the articles sections, but it's not really a "how-to" thats needed, just an explaination.
Simple answer: Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick
But it won't be simple, and not really "programmed" in MMF2: http://www.clickteam.com/epicenter/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=84049#Post84049 .
Or probably use Werbad's shader 3d example, that will also require some kind of programming as the objects aren't updated in realtime (AFAIK).
Or also if you want some simple 3D things you can go with 3D actives , Mode 7 object or 3D mesh object.
However, my greatest suggestion is to wait and see what the future brings us... :)
My 3.1415926 cents.
Possible, but not practical. MMF2 and TGF2 were not designed for it. But it seems to be a hot topic, doesn't it? IMO games were better before 3D became the commercial game standard.
Good idea...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynamite
And even if you could get a successful 3d engine running, I am not sure you could make a whole game out of it. That would take a really long while to do. Go for the 2d stuff, you can make really cool games out of it, especially using your own graphics.
The Answer to your question is sort of: Multimedia Fusion 2 can do 3D but The Games Factory 2 Can't.
Look at this. (You need Hardware Acceleration)
http://www.clickteam.com/epicenter/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=96465&fpart=1
This is a real quake 3 map in Multimedia Fusion 2.
http://villy.aquadasoft.com/enjoy.PNG
That was using an extension I havn't finalized - because of lack of interest from the public. (And because 2d is better)
I aggree 2D games can be way better and they certianly are a LOT! easier to make, believe me I tried doing 3D in MMF2.
Making a 3D in game in MMF2 is like killing a Wild Bear with a teaspoon.
My own personal opinion have always been that MMF should stay 2D, most of the more experienced MMF users who knows what it takes to create a good game have shown very little interest in any 3D features.Quote:
That was using an extension I havn't finalized - because of lack of interest from the public.
2D games are more memorable... to me that is :)
There is something about pixel artwork that simply pleases my eyes. Maybe it's because I respect the work that goes into those types of graphics. You can't keyframe your way around the hard work of animating each frame.
Well, no matter whenever 2D or 3D games are the better, 3D modelling is very complicated and time consuming, it takes tons of skill and time, and even if it's possible for a company to create some super easy to use game creation software, the process of 3D modelling itself is so hard that only people with a lot of time and skill will be able to create something. When it comes to simpler 3D games with 2D sprites (Doom) I can just not see an interest in such games these days. Yeah, people sometimes still play those old goodies for nostalgic reasons, but would probably not pick up a new such game.
MODERATOR NOTICE
While we all know DragonGuy has been very active in requesting a MMF 3D, can I please ask forum members not to poke fun at him because of it. DragonGuy is as much as part of our community as any of us and while he's the most vocal on the MMF 3D subject, he's not the only forum member who has an interest in seeing MMF 3D come about.
Hmmm, my post was actually not at all directed towards DragonGuy, it was more a response to Villy's note about the public lack of interest for that 3D extension. Basically, the post is my general opinion about an MMF3D. In some way, despite that I don't believe that we'd see many good games created in it, some part of me would absolutely love to be proven wrong.
Still, sorry if I did cross the line. Perhaps my posts could be interpreted differently than I intended.
Nifflas, I wasn't directly pointing out your post. Every time the topic of MMF 3D comes up, me and fellow mods see posts pointing out DragonGuy. We would just like that to stop as he's a contributing member to our community as we all are.
Been there, done that....Quote:
Making a 3D in game in MMF2 is like killing a Wild Bear with a teaspoon.
It's like killing someone like Goliat when you're someone like David...Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwing
It can be done :)
I was the one who said: "Making a 3D in game in MMF2 is like killing a Wild Bear with a teaspoon."
Yes it can be done but the whole idea of that expression is that it's very difficult but still possible, I mean if the wild bear was mysteriously hit by a tranquiliser dart you could throw away the teaspoon and push it into the river so it drowns.
My Signature contains instructions on how to make a basic 3D Engine; S Means Sprite C means Camera, A is angle, xyz1 is it's position on the map, xyz2 is it's position relative from the camera, xy3 is it's position on the screen.
Am I the only one sick of these 3D posts. I like the idea of a sticky thread or something to warn potential users that if they are wanting 3D, they should seriously look elsewhere. If you really wanted to make 3D with MMF, then I think you would have a decent grounding in 3D through another software language. And you would therefore be able to figure alot of this out without needing to post on the forums.
Sorry to rant, but I see these kinds of threads at least once a week and they are generally from people who are ill-equipped to see an MMF-based 3D project through.
Sorry again for the rant,
Mobichan
..in fairy tales..Quote:
Originally Posted by Bornemix
I think there should be an MMF FAQ. Pretty much every system, game, software, etc. has a FAQ that answers those kind of questions that keep coming up. Why doesn't MMF?
Write a nice FAQ, make it sticky and point every beginner to read it before asking on the forums.
Q: 3D Games? Is It Possible In MMF2/TGF2?
A: Just as possible as painting a picture with your own blood. It has been done, it looks pretty stupid, and I wouldn't recommend trying. (no offense to the person who made one)
By 3D Games I Mean This Standard http://www.youtube.com/v/4Ej_EUIQzGM
Advanced Scrolling Really.
There's a Mode 7 object that approximates that kind of viewpoint, though it would look much more like the original Mario Kart than the N64 version.
Good Enough!
I don't know how this is "advanced scrolling" to you - because it is as 3d as it gets.
You know, not to fan the fire or anything, but something like the Doom engine should be doable. Other than aspects of the flats* (floors and ceilings) Doom doesn't actually render any 3D geometry that I'm aware of. It just repeats and skews a bunch of textures, working from the back of the screen to the front of the screen. All of Doom's programming is purely 2D. If you've ever looked at the automap, that's all the game's sector data. It's all flat, but it has an illusion of height, and some rules for moving between sectors based on the floor and ceiling height variables.
Now I'm not saying this is easy, because it's frigging hard, but with a pixel shader capable of doing 3D skews/distortion on a texture and a whole lot of math the visual output of the Doom engine could be recreated at least to the level of the SNES port, which had no flats. The actual "game" engine would run "behind" the display, using normal MMF frames and movement and collisions and such, and that data would be interpreted by the "render" engine which would draw it in pseudo-3D.
*I'm not sure how the flats work, actually. They may be 2D polygons, or they may be something really clever that Carmack came up with. Marking them would be simple math using lines, but filling them with a texture would seem to require much more complex calculations. (Probably why the SNES version doesn't have them. It's all the SuperFX clip can do just to handle the skewing/scaling on the walls, and the game still has a lousy frame rate.) It's possible that using a separate layer for rendering the flats rather than drawing to the same "buffer" with the walls might work...
Flats are flood-filled down the screen, as far as I remember, until they encounter the edge of the screen or a vertical surface. I'm not quite sure how the angle of them is worked out.
There are an incredible amount of clever things in Doom - it's even rather more complex than a full 3D engine because of all the workarounds that they put in place.
The Doom Engine and the Build Engine are so complex it could possibly require some sorf of a Doom/Build extension for it to be doable in MMF, it's theorectically possible without an extension but it would be a ton of work.
But less complex Engines such as the Wolfenstein 3D Engine or the Rise of the Triad Engine would be a lot easier to make and I'd recommend you start with something like that.
I'm not interested in making one, I was just thinking about how the Doom engine renders its graphics because I knew from all the modding I used to do on it many years ago that it wasn't really a 3D engine, just a really clever 2D one, and thus it actually could use many of MMF's built in features. It was mainly because I saw a post saying that Doom could never be done in MMF, and I disagree. It's just not worth the effort, not impossible.
Your going to tell Nick his Simple answer of No is wrong? Didn't he make a full blown Roller Coaster model in MMF? [laugh]
Mobichan; you've worked on some commercial 3D games. [laugh]
Additionally, I don't think it's actually that people don't like 3D games, I've played many, and own an Xbox360, Xbox, Playstation, Gamecube etc... It's just that as Nifflas mentioned you'd basically have more success creating a "good" 2D game, than a terrible 3D one...
I really feel like 3D is best left to the pros, mainly because of the elite skill involved, indie developers mostly if not always consist of very small groups of individuals and single developers, and as you know it still takes "MONTHS" to produce 2D content, 3D content is a totally different world. The time it takes to design 3D content is ten fold, even with a group of people, if your goal is to pull off a complete game... Now take a look at some indie commercial games, and notice how simple they are graphically and content wise.
So the sole impracticallity of indie 3D game development is the time it takes to create content, notice I didn't say skill, because there are plenty of people who can model 3D elements, but in the time it takes to model 1 character, you could have 50 2D ones. Then imagine if you had no clue where to start in designing a 3D model, whew your in for some more fun...
Clickteam has shown interest in the past with an easy 3D solution for MMF, as JAMAGIC, but it is less complex to boot up MMF, and jump straight into the picture editor and start painting, than boot up MMF and say Maya or Lightwave...
Now 3D I feel does have a place in 2D but only for enhancements, or natural textures, something you can't "draw"... Or opening Movies or Logos [laugh]
But there is more than one person intersted in 3D games vs MMF, so it's always going to be a debate.
Keep in mind right after mmf3 is released click team is beginning a new line of 3d! environments, Which will be interesting because as 00J said it's quite impractical to complete a 3d game without a lot of manpower...
although no doubt that's what they said about 2d games not to long ago :grin:
That would be cool, if Clickteam can make an environment creation tool. [smile]
We wouldn't want every game to have the same environment, that's another thing i like about 2D, it's easy to make your games totally unique...
I think this thread has run its course.
Closing.