So is MMF a programming language or not ?

MMF is programming software, basically an IDE. I'm not sure what the name of the "language" is. "Click Events"?

The fact that MMF (and its runtime) are written in C is a moot point, everything has to be written in something. e.g. C++ compilers are written in C++ (resulting in a nice little chicken-and-egg problem). In fact most languages' compilers or interpreters are written in C or C++. It's rare for a language to be low-level enough that it has a compiler for itself written in itself.

MMF is a very high-level programming 'language'.

Programming refered to as low-level programming means its closer to direct control of the hardware. High level programming languages are built ontop of other programming languages.

Some examples:

Very high-level: MMF, Rpg maker, etc.
High-level: Visual C, XNA
Med-level: C++
Low-level: Assembler (asm)
Extreme low-level: manually writing binary code (10001110101) ;)

The lower the level of the programming language, the more "geeky" (harder) the code gets.


Anyway, if all you have ever used is MMF or other very high-level programming tools, and someone asks you "are you a programmer?"
say "no".

Your last sentence completely contradicts your post?

If it's a programming lanugage at any level, and you have used it to do absolutely anything - then by definition you have programmed with it, and thus can be considered a programmer?

I don't think that Sieg contradicts himself. I think that he means that if someone asks you if you are programmer, say no even though you are, as the one asking the question most likely doesn't accept anything higher than high-level programming for programming, and would see you as a designer or a developer, but not neccessary a programmer.

When I use MMF2 I call myself a game designer. I design the game, I design how it works and plays, I design the content etc..
And I think that is the purpose with MMF2. We shall not need to program. We shall design.

The normal use of the word programmer is for someone that only works with code and lets someone else do the design, so I don't like to call myself a programmer when I work with MMF2 :)

Most "real" programmers (i.e. people using languages like C++ or some sort of scripting) will scoff at the idea of MMF2 being programming.

But does it really matter? You use a set of instructions to tell the game how to behave. That's pretty much all I need to know.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Popcorn

I don't think that Sieg contradicts himself. I think that he means that if someone asks you if you are programmer, say no even though you are, as the one asking the question most likely doesn't accept anything higher than high-level programming for programming, and would see you as a designer or a developer, but not neccessary a programmer.

When I use MMF2 I call myself a game designer. I design the game, I design how it works and plays, I design the content etc..
And I think that is the purpose with MMF2. We shall not need to program. We shall design.

The normal use of the word programmer is for someone that only works with code and lets someone else do the design, so I don't like to call myself a programmer when I work with MMF2 :)

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I know what Sieg's getting at... on one hand he says MMF is a programming language, and on the other he says those who use it are not programmers - and that is contradictory.

Your definition of the word 'programmer' is no more valid than mine, so I would say yes - MMF users can be considered programmers, by virtue of programming MMF!!

Also - certain MMF games, particularly online ones, take a very decent amount of knowledge of channels, script, or whatever, and can be very complex - and in my eyes, that's on par with programming in lower-level languages like C...

But Shawn makes a good point - you can argue 'till the cows come home as to whether it's a language, or whether we're programmers, etc - but it doesn't really matter much! lol

Popcorn got it right.

If we go by what Asholay says, we may aswell call Photoshoppers programmers. Afterall, they program the computer telling it what color pixel to display where.

It may not hold up in court, but I think it is obvious MMF users are not true programmers.

MMF is an all visual programming interface but it's in plain english, you will only need your mouse to programme your games, the only thing you need a keyboard is for typing in-game dialog and even that can be substituted with a mouse using the windows on-screen keyboard. Oh sorry dribbled on a bit there.

MMF has specifically designed to be so extremely easy, a 4 year old could make you your favouritest adventure game in the world.

Games made in MMF are very wide and diverse unlike other competetirors like RPG Maker, FPS Maker & AGS. You can make these following things with MMF...
Stratedgy
Shoot em Ups
Adventures
Role Playing Games
Bat and Ball
Theme Park
Racing
Puzzles
Quizes
Flyers
Beat em Ups
Board Games
Tower Defense
Snake
Escape

This whole discussion doesn't have a real point, yet i'm replying again :)

I think Popcorn has said the most important thing here : We are not programmers when using MMF because we don't want to be programming we want to be designing. And it's just what makes the success of MMF !

We could argue about this for very long, or "is making my DVD-record record at 8pm to 5am programming ?" or " is making my dog-pet bark when I come home programming ?". There is no real limit to say this is programming and this is not, but I think the important thing is what you are feeling : are you designing games or programming ?

I'm (trying to) make games.

A programer, programs a computer. A coder, writes code to program a computer.

So we're all programers, but we're not computer coders or software writers.

The only excuse I can see, for why you wouldn't declare yourself a programer, is because of the lack of specific knowledge from outsiders.