The question is simple, but the answer don't seem to be quite as simple, so I'd like to ask the creators of MMF if MMF is or not a programming language ?
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The question is simple, but the answer don't seem to be quite as simple, so I'd like to ask the creators of MMF if MMF is or not a programming language ?
Yes
You are giving the computer a series of instructions to follow.
Example -- Your creation doesn't do much unless you program in some events and tell it what to do.
That is programming :)
You're using the MMF eventing system so then I suppose that is an MMF programming "language".
(If you must have me use that term)
To program a computer you must use something so the computer can figure out what to do and so all those instructions must be the programming language. As its what the computer (and MMF runtime) use to know what you want it to do.
It's a programming tool, and it can be considered a programming language... But since it's not scripted, and only the expressions have a real syntax, I'd say it's hardly a language.
But I don't really understand why you are asking this. Are you using MMF, or only trying to understand what kind of product it is ? In this case there is a demo you should try !
I would agree with Corentin, although it's certainly a moot point.
I guess you could say it's more of a dialect, or accent, than a full language - particularly as it is coded in C++ (I think??).
Although using Jeff's logic, you could state that by interpreting an input, into a desired output, it's classed as a programming language - but then again, I'm a lawyer, so I could argue that a series of farts is comprehensive prose.
Indeed. And MMF2 is one of the most easy to use graphical creation tools ever. I'm making my Christmas e-cards with it. :D
It's amazing how people whine about the differences between "real" programing languages and Multimedia Fusion 2, and how ones better then the other, but in reality... MMF is closer to programing then almost any other creation tool out there. Especially with the event editor. The flow is almost exact.
The only dev softwares I can think of that could be considered closer to real programming actually integrate and require use of (for high-quality products) a script editor, anyway. With MMF2 it's completely unnecessary~Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonC
I also think so, the "no programming required" is really just... dangerous: I got the impression many people end up disappointed and frustrated once the realization everything (from say movements to dialogue engine) has to be programmed manually sets in. The MMF dropoff rate must be huge.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonC
Personally I consider it to be a visual programming language, similar to say "body language", "speech" or "painting" to "written language".
A long list of programming "languages" have been developed that tell the computer what to do. More recently, programs called authoring software has been developed that allows one to program the computer by words rather than complex code. MMF is one of the best authorin programs since it insulates the user almost entirely from a programming language. So, I would say that you are accomplishing the ends using a programming language without using it. The other most popular authoring programs from Flash to Authorware to Director all require the use of a scripting language that is far more complex than using MMF. Of couse, anyone who has made complex applications in MMF knows that the fundamental problems of programming, bugs, conflicting code, sequence of events, are still problems and have to be dealt with. So, kudos to the developers of MMF for creating such a great authoring system that shields us from the difficulties of a true programming language.
Well, this debate could last forever.
In the traditional sense, I guess MMF would be better classified as a GUI based multimedia application builder. Since MMF was built using C++. But then, is C++ less of a programming language than assembly or raw machine code? Is Visual Basic a programming language since you basically just drag and drop buttons to your form, then add your vb code to tell what happens? Would MMF be a programming language if it allowed scripting? And would the event editor be considered GUI, or Visual Scripting?
You could go on endlessly.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what it is if it gets the job done.
Bottom line: if you're in it for rapid development and ease of use, it's a great product. If you want to get a job as a computer programmer for some software company, you're going to have to learn more traditional languages.
MMF2 does what I need and a lot easier for me than trying to do the same thing in C++.
MMF is programming software, basically an IDE. I'm not sure what the name of the "language" is. "Click Events"?
The fact that MMF (and its runtime) are written in C is a moot point, everything has to be written in something. e.g. C++ compilers are written in C++ (resulting in a nice little chicken-and-egg problem). In fact most languages' compilers or interpreters are written in C or C++. It's rare for a language to be low-level enough that it has a compiler for itself written in itself.
MMF is a very high-level programming 'language'.
Programming refered to as low-level programming means its closer to direct control of the hardware. High level programming languages are built ontop of other programming languages.
Some examples:
Very high-level: MMF, Rpg maker, etc.
High-level: Visual C, XNA
Med-level: C++
Low-level: Assembler (asm)
Extreme low-level: manually writing binary code (10001110101) ;)
The lower the level of the programming language, the more "geeky" (harder) the code gets.
Anyway, if all you have ever used is MMF or other very high-level programming tools, and someone asks you "are you a programmer?"
say "no".
Your last sentence completely contradicts your post?
If it's a programming lanugage at any level, and you have used it to do absolutely anything - then by definition you have programmed with it, and thus can be considered a programmer?
I don't think that Sieg contradicts himself. I think that he means that if someone asks you if you are programmer, say no even though you are, as the one asking the question most likely doesn't accept anything higher than high-level programming for programming, and would see you as a designer or a developer, but not neccessary a programmer.
When I use MMF2 I call myself a game designer. I design the game, I design how it works and plays, I design the content etc..
And I think that is the purpose with MMF2. We shall not need to program. We shall design.
The normal use of the word programmer is for someone that only works with code and lets someone else do the design, so I don't like to call myself a programmer when I work with MMF2 :)
Most "real" programmers (i.e. people using languages like C++ or some sort of scripting) will scoff at the idea of MMF2 being programming.
But does it really matter? You use a set of instructions to tell the game how to behave. That's pretty much all I need to know.
I know what Sieg's getting at... on one hand he says MMF is a programming language, and on the other he says those who use it are not programmers - and that is contradictory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Popcorn
Your definition of the word 'programmer' is no more valid than mine, so I would say yes - MMF users can be considered programmers, by virtue of programming MMF!!
Also - certain MMF games, particularly online ones, take a very decent amount of knowledge of channels, script, or whatever, and can be very complex - and in my eyes, that's on par with programming in lower-level languages like C...
But Shawn makes a good point - you can argue 'till the cows come home as to whether it's a language, or whether we're programmers, etc - but it doesn't really matter much! lol
Popcorn got it right.
If we go by what Asholay says, we may aswell call Photoshoppers programmers. Afterall, they program the computer telling it what color pixel to display where.
It may not hold up in court, but I think it is obvious MMF users are not true programmers.
MMF is an all visual programming interface but it's in plain english, you will only need your mouse to programme your games, the only thing you need a keyboard is for typing in-game dialog and even that can be substituted with a mouse using the windows on-screen keyboard. Oh sorry dribbled on a bit there.
MMF has specifically designed to be so extremely easy, a 4 year old could make you your favouritest adventure game in the world.
Games made in MMF are very wide and diverse unlike other competetirors like RPG Maker, FPS Maker & AGS. You can make these following things with MMF...
Stratedgy
Shoot em Ups
Adventures
Role Playing Games
Bat and Ball
Theme Park
Racing
Puzzles
Quizes
Flyers
Beat em Ups
Board Games
Tower Defense
Snake
Escape
This whole discussion doesn't have a real point, yet i'm replying again :)
I think Popcorn has said the most important thing here : We are not programmers when using MMF because we don't want to be programming we want to be designing. And it's just what makes the success of MMF !
We could argue about this for very long, or "is making my DVD-record record at 8pm to 5am programming ?" or " is making my dog-pet bark when I come home programming ?". There is no real limit to say this is programming and this is not, but I think the important thing is what you are feeling : are you designing games or programming ?
I'm (trying to) make games.
A programer, programs a computer. A coder, writes code to program a computer.
So we're all programers, but we're not computer coders or software writers.
The only excuse I can see, for why you wouldn't declare yourself a programer, is because of the lack of specific knowledge from outsiders.
A programmer is someone who creates documents that give the computer instructions to carry out. Just because you're not using a language doesn't mean you're not a programmer.
IMHO, if you're using something like FL Studio, then you're programming too. Programming music, but still programming. The piano roll and automation are actually instructions that the computer will follow, as are the programming of the plugins themselves.
MMF falls under the heading of a 4th Generational Programming Language. A 4GL is a programming language in which you tell the computer what you want it to do, and it does it the way it knows how, without you specifying exactly how to do it. So YES, MMF is a programming language which is recognised in the industry.
I guess that could describe C or even ASM, though?Quote:
you tell the computer what you want it to do, and it does it the way it knows how, without you specifying exactly how to do it.
I'm not familar with ASM, but I know C and C is not a 4GL programming language because it gives you direct control over how the code is laid and executed. For example, in MMF, if we want a ball to bounce around the screen, we assign a ball movement. But we don't control the movement itself or tell MMF how to execute the movement. In C you would have to code all that.
But in C, if you assign a variable, you don't really know how the computer is going to do that - you just write the code and the compiler converts that to machine code.
Depending on how you look at it, you could apply any programming language to your definition. After all, you don't know how the processor works when you get down to it!
Jamie, I didn't invent the computer programming industry. 4GL's are a fact, they are a recognised part of the computer world. I did a project on it in 2000 for college. There is a huge 4GL realm out there and it is a recognised part of the computer programming industry. C does not fall into the 4GL catagory, I think it is a 1st Generation Languate. It's not about writing binary code, it's about the coding. MMF doesn't let you code like that, instead you tell the computer what you want done and MMF does it in the way it knows how.
MMF is a 4GL programming language recognised by the computer industry.
C is not a 4GL.
I don't see why not.
Why C is not a 4GL?Quote:
Originally Posted by MechaBowser
In MMF, you assign Ball Movement to a ball sprite. MMF controls that movement in the way it knows how. You don't tell MMF how to do it.
In C, you have to tell the computer what Ball Movement is, controling movement, speed, bounce, etc. You have to program all the elements of it.
That's the difference.
Simply put: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4GL
Read the first sentence - That's all you need, actually.
Thanks, Looki.
I think the people defending MMF2's title as people a form of programing, are the very people who refuse to use those absurd default movements to begin with. Yes, we actually program how we want our objects to work. So in a matter of speaking, we do "program all the elements in."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_Boland
This is called the Event Grid editor in MMF, MMF also has the Event List Editor, similar logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
Its just the event editor. No Grid :(Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonguy
I think this has run its course, still not sure why the original post or the answer the OP wanted/was after.. its certainly not a support query :D
If the original poster had a specific question/reason please post again (maybe in the community forum).
Closing.