When will the 249 version be released?

Hi all.

My question is when the final version 249 for the MMF2 Dev will be released and if this version will implement the same content that the comercial Flash Exporter have.

I would like to know if it will have another options for add than mochiads, cause i dont like Mochiads rates (CPMStar is way better for example).

And the last thing, is there any way to implement custom Action Script or at least flash code into the games? Cause i do plan into going commercial with some of my games and flash are better for that than Java. Id asked that because many Flash sponsors like to implement their own custom codes in the sources, containing links and metas.

Thanks for your answers.

Mochi ads: for the moment we do not have the intention of imlplementing another system. But we will release new Mochi objects : Mochi Leaderboard (hiscores) and Mochi Coin (eshop in your game).
There is not way of implementing action script in the game. You would not want to do it as the runtime is a very complex peice of software, and having your own code would clash with it.

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Originally Posted by Francois

Mochi ads: for the moment we do not have the intention of imlplementing another system. But we will release new Mochi objects : Mochi Leaderboard (hiscores) and Mochi Coin (eshop in your game).
There is not way of implementing action script in the game. You would not want to do it as the runtime is a very complex peice of software, and having your own code would clash with it.

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First, thanks for the answer Francois. I think ive get the picture.

But is it that impossible to make some external Flash injector or build one internal, inside the program, that could implement some simple lines of Flash (lines that cant call on pictures or other more complex actions) that stays invisible till the user compiles it to Flash? By this way you can test your application in .mfa without incompatibilities, but the good thing is that when the game is build the code can be injected on the address that you previously selected. By this way the code are ONLY implemented when you compile, giving no problems with the language of the MMF2.

I know that in the middle of this are some real problematic decisions, like paying Adobe for some licenses and all, but i think that by making some kind of "code injector" like said above you could avoid the paiments for a license (maybe its worth a little research on your side).

My point is, theres another world on the other side of the MMF2 world, plagged with Flash devs that would pay their eyes for a way to develop games in a more fast pace. Theres a invisible bridge between this two world that if you can figure a way to bring some conveniences to the other side, you will make a lot by bringing this programers to your family.

The only inconvenient i actualy see for this to happen are right now this custom code problem as related on my last post. The publishers and sponsors are realy neat in regarding of this, they realy ask for the dev to implement some simple codes like a meta one (to know datas and charts and all of that), external add callers (to call their adds) and some other ones of the same nature. I do think too that if you are selling a product, you have some kind of responsability with your customer to give him freedom on their creations, and yes, this freedom does imply in him to have the free will to choice for their add sponsor too.

Look... i dont want to imply here that you gain anything from Mochiads, i only imply that once a customer buys your product, lets say its de MMF2 Dev, he has the right of choice to go with Mochi or go with his other add company. Its his right, dont you think? Another way that you could work with this problem was limiting the two versions of MMF, the simple one could be limited to Mochi, while on the expensive one you could give then more freedom, dont you think?

If implementing a Flash code injector are out of question, than why not just go for other add companies like CPMStar and others, thay undoulbtely pays much more for their adds. Im only trying to give you another perspective, where you could gain from many sides, the side of the Flash devs, the side of the add companies and and others, and by doing that you are giving your users a real freedom to go comercial.

Sorry if i rise some topics here that wasnt supposed to be so freely spoken, but i would not be speaking this things if i wasnt with realy good intents for everyone on this matter.

At last, sorry for my bad english, and hope you do not get me wrong.

vingadorjr, you're not the only one who'd appreciate such options :)
Mochi-support is really cool, but I also hope there's a way to enhance MMFs capabilities to allow working with sponsors in a more flexible way.

Francois, please tell us if there are possible solutions, even if there are no plans to integrate them yet. Could extensions add such functionality?

If people send us links to places like Mochi - they will be reviewed and we will see if we can put in options similar to the mochi ones.

Extensions are also possible but in for things like the advertising built into the properties is the easiest method.

To JoKa: Thanks JoKa, i know that there are many who wants this features.

To Jeff: Try first the best add option, www.cpmstar.com. Theres others, but they dont pay better than the above mentioned nor better than Mochi. But if someone want to put their links here, its up to them ofcourse.

To all:

This are some serious things we are talking here. For you all that dont know, i will put some perspectives and numbers on the table. While you can only make some bucks out of a Java game (or in Flash with only Mochiads), something about $ 200 (US dollars) per month, you can make something like $ 2.000 (2k) per month with an average game on Flash by using some methods. The point on how you can monentarize a Flash game is a little trick, but the great % of your money comes from a sponsor. They are whiling to pay from a range that goes from 2k to 40k, depending on the quality of your game and the options that you give them to work with, options like their own adds, the capability for them to administrate the adds that runs in your game (its a very simple redirectional link process), add exclusivity and many more options that you can accept or not. In the end its the pack of options that you give to the sponsor that will make the diference on your payment. So for this to happen, those who work with MMF2 need, and must have, some little more flexibility that the program can give to you on future updates.

Heres a very good and clarifying article about the monentarization of an average Flash game made by a normal developer. Remember that the game that this developer made wasnt that great by any mean, its like all the others, the concept of the game are good, but on the other disciplines, its just like a game that YOU could do by your own on your free time using MMF2 Dev. Go there and take your own conclusions. The point is that this dev put numbers for you all to see:

http://www.andymoore.ca/2010/03/steambirds-by-the-numbers/

Also, you all can go to a good site called Flash Game License to easely find a sponsor, remember that on the above example the dev took only 4 days to find a sponsor for his game by using this site, with the bids ranging from 2k to 45k. Do some little researchs and you can make from 2k to 5k from your simple game just by sponsoring your game using a time exclusive method. For the residual method to gain from your game, you can choose adds from Mochi or from CPMStar, but Mochi pays much less then the CPMStar, unfortunately, as seen on the above article. But the best way is to find another sponsor to gain some more from your work when the time expires or renew your compromiss with your actual sponsor. At last, its better to keep with the sponsors add options than go on an add-rampage by your own and thats what a MMF2 dev needs, a little more flexibility, to put the add code that the sponsor gives you on your game. Its simple but it has been proven a realy dificult bridge between the two worlds that involve many political things, or at least it looks like that.

The ClickTeam have the power to change an amateur MMF2 dev into a professional developer, that gains what he deservs for, and by making this the ClickTeam will be puting an end into some unfair labbor exploration that some add companies impose to the ammateur devs. Of course, its aways up to a person to go and do some researchs to see this, but my point is that the CTeam can make history here and gains the deserved for their work of acting like the above mentioned bridge.

To beggin, some more add options would be realy good, after that we all would really apreciate some more methods to make a Flash development a little more flexible in regarding some little things that sponsors like to implement.

So, this is a serious matter what we are discusing here. Not a little Mochiadds revenue that you gain by sticking only with then. We are talking about the real price that your software have, something that ranges from 2k to 40k or more, and keep in mind that if they are wriling to pay this for your game, they gain much more than that. So, choose wisely, cause sometimes the "only add" method is the wrong option and in the end you are just giving money to others. Its just advises to those who wants one, not a truth imposed by me. Id just want to give you some perspective about your work, that all.


To ClickTeam and to Francois:

Thanks for all your hardwork and thanks for working so near your custumers in inventing methods and solutions for the program. Thats really apreciated.

We all would love to see some little more flexibility on the program in regarding this matter, and i dont have doubts that it will have, the questio is when. But camon... its not that hard for you guys to implement. You all have made a really really really good work, but dont you think that its time to jump for the stage two? We are just waiting with hungry for this to happen.

Again, sorry for my bad english and sorry for the long post. Hope you all dont get me wrong because of some language limitations.

Thanks.

I will try to email the CMPStar people

But when I sign up to see if they provide an API for us to use I got this message:

We are currently only accepting developers who have prequalified with a CPMStar approved sponsor.

I think CMPStar might need to be a extension -- So if someone has a prequalified game and sponsor and would like to have us look that might speed along the process to see if we can hook in.

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Originally Posted by Jeff

I will try to email the CMPStar people

But when I sign up to see if they provide an API for us to use I got this message:

We are currently only accepting developers who have prequalified with a CPMStar approved sponsor.

I think CMPStar might need to be a extension -- So if someone has a prequalified game and sponsor and would like to have us look that might speed along the process to see if we can hook in.

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Jeff, try this link:

http://cpmstar.com/index.aspx?nav=newuser&subnav=developer

It work normal here for me and i signed up normaly. But anyway, this method maybe good to take a first look at how they work, but i do think that maybe you guys must make a more formal aproach on then to implement a function like that. If they dont have a API (of course they have) visible at their site, they can provide you all with infos about this matter. Maybe you should try a more formal aproach.

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Update:

Sorry, you was right, they are actualy only accepting devs with sponsorship right now.

Thats why the program needs a litle more flexibility in the Flash matter. The sponsors gain from adds too, so they do want to put their blocks of line add code on their sponsored games.

I was just thinking to miself... why you just dont give the dev a option to reserve a space on the code of the game for them to input this add codes? By this way the dev could implement it in the Flash form, like they originaly receive from their sponsors, and only when you BUILD the sfw is that the code will realy be implementes on that space? Its a way, isnt it? I maybe wrong, but for me it sounds plausible.

But anyway, try a formal aproach with them and you two can study a way to do business.

Thats the form I used but I then get the message:

We are currently only accepting developers who have prequalified with a CPMStar approved sponsor.

I will write them an email later and see if they even want us to add the ability in our exporter to hook to their ad system.

Sorry Jeff, ive updated my reply above.

Jeff

I'll pm you the email of cpmstars founder/president.

Developers and sponsors have an 50% equal share of the revenue when choosing cpmstar, with Mochiads it's 10% sponsor/publisher 50% developer and the rest mochi pockets. http://www.mochimedia.com/support/dev_faq#revenue_share_title

I've bidded and won an a fair few games over at flashgamelicence and 90% of all high end bids usually entail the involvement of cpmstar.

Highscores - If your thinking of adding a game to FGL and it has a scoring mechanism then adding a highscore api is a must. The following is a good highscore api

http://code.google.com/p/cunitescore/

When looking to sponsor a game I usually want to

Sitelock it for 1-2 weeks (it would be handy for mmf developers to have some kind of extension to lock the flash so that it's only played on xyz domain).

Highscore - Site visitors are a competitive bunch they'll want to beat Joe Bloggs highscore, if it's a good game and has an high score mechanism then you can guarantee a replay= more ad views.

Branding - I've just forked out 3k-6k on a game I want my branding on that game as a flash pre-loader, on a 'more games' button in the menu link, as a button at the end of a game and maybe as a permanent small link within gameplay.

Every now and again I come across a Mochiad game that's been released (2-3 months) but it's no longer allowing the user to play the game instead it's performing a redirect to the developers site (or somewhere else). It's called version control and explains a lot why sponsors are hesitant to add mochiads.
https://www.mochimedia.com/community/forum/topic/who-controls-version-control#15

Don't get me wrong I check Mochiads every day for new games but I'll add games only if I really,really like the game (factors that influence this are the game itself, highscore and developers reliability).

By the way I've noticed a few games developed with mmf in mochis distribution system. And some of these have awkward controls that involve the use of CTRL,SHIFT or TAB. Most flash games usually use WASD, ARROW KEYS or ZXCVBNM. I won't expand on this but it's like a universal control mechanism (player can just drop in and play). If you want to maximize your chance of getting a decent sponsorship or getting a replay on your game then try sticking to the basics.

Thanks for the insight about all the details we need to take into account when looking for sponsors.

So far I released some minigames to gain experience with Mochiads and Flash basics, but I hoped to offer some more complex games to sponsors after the next patch.

Now it doesn't seem to make much sense, due to the current limitations. I'm wondering what to do with these games, prepare them for launch and put them on hold until more crucial functions are added to MMF?

Or should I just pump out everything using Mochiads, because there are no plans to add the stuff mentioned above? Some info about CTs plans for future updates would really help to judge the situation.

Btw, MMF already allows site-locks.

@ fishnchips: When winning a bid on a Flash game, what (if any) code do you insist that a developer adds to their game? Assuming that they have a highscore system (would one they've developed themselves be OK?) and have added support for Mochi or CPMStar.

Would you also be able to provide some examples of games that are worth $500, $1,000, $2,000, $6,000 etc? Just to give us all an idea of the levels we should be aspiring to!


EDIT: Digging around it does appear that CPMStar is the most popular. Would be awesome if this was implemented :)

Thanks for some insight fishnchips.

Steven, Ive put in some exemple on a post, on the first page, of a 25k game that was recentely sold in 3 or 4 days of bids.

Im having the same problems of many. I have a game in 50% of development but i cannot put hin to sponsorship right now for this flexibility problem. So ive decide to make a pause on this game in particular till i see some light on this matter. Time is money, you know.

As ive said before, maybe you should study some way to let the devs implement some flash resources through a flash injector. Like giving us the ability to reserve some space through the Event Editor to put some stand alone flash codes in this space. This codes would be invisible till the time you compile the app to flash. It would act like a reverved memory feature. Dont see the downs, maybe they exist, but its a case for the ClickTeam to study, cause this feature would please many devs.

By the way JoKa... if I was you, i would put this games on hold. Use the rest of your time in developing more games and polishing the others. Remember one thing, when you release a game in a viral way, it progressively looses its price. Hide your games till you get a sponsor, after that if thats alright with your sponsor, go viral and all.

A game that was released one year ago doesnt have the same value than a game released on the week, remember that.

ClickTeam... can you give us some light here please?

Hopefully later this summer when its time for the next Flash/SWF exporter update its something we can address. It won't be in the first update to the exporter.

very intresting to hear you views fishnchips, I am sure CT will pay attention and look to improve some of these areas in the coming months.

Would the current functionaility limits from an MMF built game rule out bidding on one for you or just potentially lower the price?

Are there any other problems that games built in MMF and converted to Flash pose for you?

Joka,

If you have any mini-games less than a 1mg you can try selling on activeden http://activeden.net/category/games and if mmf2 flash files can read xml then you can sell that too (i.e. flash reads ingame banner info from xml).

Steven,
Code changes can vary from adding text,spelling mistakes to gameplay changes, but the one constant is the sponsors branding. If the sponsor has their own in house highscore api then you can be sure they'll request that be included.

Look at the recent bidding on fgl for an idea for game value.

Andrew,

It depends if the game is really good and includes sponsors branding then there is no reason to not bid on it.

Size is the only limiting factor on a game, I try not to sponsor or add anything over 7-13mb if a game is over 7mb it has to be really,really good (gemcraft for instance). One way for developers to cut down on size is lowering bitrates to something acceptable and optimizing images, cut down on useless clutter before adding to mmf2 (pnggauntlet).

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Look at the recent bidding on fgl for an idea for game value

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How do you see how much has been bidded for a game? I've signed up for a developer account but couldn't see where it shows that... :crazy:

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Originally Posted by fishnchips

If you have any mini-games less than a 1mg you can try selling on activeden http://activeden.net/category/games and if mmf2 flash files can read xml then you can sell that too (i.e. flash reads ingame banner info from xml).

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All the games on ActiveDen are made available to be opened in Flash CS3/4, or Flex Builder, or just the plain Action Script, so I doubt just an .swf file will suffice.

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All the games on ActiveDen are made available to be opened in Flash CS3/4, or Flex Builder, or just the plain Action Script, so I doubt just an .swf file will suffice.

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You mean, you can't upload a swf file (only)? you need a source/actionscript file only for upload on ActiveDen ?

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As ive said before, maybe you should study some way to let the devs implement some flash resources through a flash injector. Like giving us the ability to reserve some space through the Event Editor to put some stand alone flash codes in this space. This codes would be invisible till the time you compile the app to flash. It would act like a reverved memory feature. Dont see the downs, maybe they exist, but its a case for the ClickTeam to study, cause this feature would please many devs.

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After quite a bit of research and talking to a few chaps it does appear that for a click game to be taken seriously by a sponsor/portal we would need to do something along the lines of what vingadorjr has suggested. Would this be possible Jeff/Francois? **crosses fingers**

http://activeden.net/item/asteroid-ace/83217

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Originally Posted by DizzyDoo

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Originally Posted by fishnchips

If you have any mini-games less than a 1mg you can try selling on activeden http://activeden.net/category/games and if mmf2 flash files can read xml then you can sell that too (i.e. flash reads ingame banner info from xml).

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All the games on ActiveDen are made available to be opened in Flash CS3/4, or Flex Builder, or just the plain Action Script, so I doubt just an .swf file will suffice.

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http://activeden.net/item/asteroid-ace/83217

http://activeden.net/item/whack-a-mole-v1/59786

http://activeden.net/item/bird-saver/43343

The sample above have included just the flash file. If your still in doubt ask activeden.

http://wiki.envato.com/selling/tips-selling/activeden-files-we-do-and-dont-need/

Sorry Steven, nothing I can do about that , sponsors can see other bids, hot bidding and whatnot.

http://wiki.envato.com/selling/upload-instructions/activeden-flash-upload-instructions/

in the upload-instructions (activeden) written :

[color:#990000]Zip (not Rar) all the files the buyer will need, including all the source and instructions, and name it main.zip. Please note that all source is required, including your component’s source.
[/color]

The problem - MMF create a swf file and not a sourcefile (flex or actionscript).

Can i not upload a swf file only? :(

Why can't you just include the MFA as a source??

If you want to upload something to FlashDen you will need to make it using Flash! They require the fla source of Flash projects, duh!

Guys let me say something important here about Flash game licence.
You better know what you are doing coz if you deliver a game and some things don't work or bugged and you already had your money they will do anything to get their money back.

So be carefull with selling games.
nuff said

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Originally Posted by Evilized79

Guys let me say something important here about Flash game licence.
You better know what you are doing coz if you deliver a game and some things don't work or bugged and you already had your money they will do anything to get their money back.

So be carefull with selling games.
nuff said

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Which is why we're all having this conversation :)

Envato are basically mostly built around the adobe products and would want the main flash source code or actionscript and not a closed swf made by other programs.

If your game is good your selling yourself short in any case selling other people the source code. Your better off just making a decent game and trying to sell that instead.

I've had a request for a site-locked version of my Helicopter game, but the buyer also wants their sites highscore API and preloader to be included.

From my current understanding this is impossible in MMF at the time of writing so it's unfeasable? Would there be anyway I could use a swf decompiler to decompile the swf into a fla file and add his highscore API and preloader?

Well. I have been following the thread for a while and just wanted to add a few things for making flash games and looking for buyers.

First of all I agree with vingadorjr 100%, they should be a way to chose your adds, not just mochi. Mochi is good to spread your game and make it viral, but money wise is a bit short IMO.

CPMstars is really good and also www.ad4game.com which can pay even more in some cases than CPM. And would be wonderful to have the ability of implement their API too.

I think would be perfect if you could actually just add some custom Action Script, so you could add any API, highscores, adds, links trackers and so on... from any buyer or add company.
Buyers that pay high have high standars, and you have to be able to make what they want.
So lets say you make an awesome game, and they want to pay you xx.xxx$ they will ask few little changes in the game. What you are going to tell them? "no sorry mf2 does not support this"

Other point is the fact that mmf2 interprets the links build in the sfw as a popup, so when you click to go to an external URL,(even if you setted up as 'target="_blank"' , the browser will block it or will ask you if you sure about it., in some cases won't do anything at all.
(I made other thread about this but no response, so not sure if there is a way around)
eg. http://www.mochimedia.com/games/baby-bounce/ (Click on BB Studios)
Sfw made with AS don't have this problem.

So I don't think a buyer will like this if they want their logo in the game.

Other thing is the issue of resizing the .sfw ... you can't
Well as far as I know you can only with the little script that Clubsoft made:
http://www.clickteam.com/epicenter/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=181061#Post1810 61
And this you have to do it locally so if you upload the game to mochi, and someone install it from there, it won't work(may be someone knows how to do it other way), but still if some has javascript disable it won't work ether.
A lot of sites like to resize the games in to a size that fit in their needs.

Memory issues. I am not very experience yet with MMF2, so may be I am worng, but as far as I know the games are much heavier than the one made with ActionScript. Not sure if there is a way to compress images or sounds.
So as smaller in size (Mb) is the game, the better.

So resuming... MMF2 is AWESOME, it really is... But it is in it's early stage(Flash talking). If clickteam wants to make this a powerful tool to make money making flash games, those are my points (above) that must be improve in next versions. IMO.

Sorry for such a long post.

Regards

This is a very interesting conversation, a way to use any API would be a whole new world.

But it might be just as simple to learn how to code an mmf extension for any api you want? maybe if clickteam made an easier way to create flash extensions from api's?

Custom preloader insertion is possible somehow, since mochi can add a preloader to your game when your uploading a mmf .swf and i noticed some sites also adding another one before that in my games without my approval.

Jamie said the next mmf update will have a work-around for the links so they work like the links on other flash games and the mochi-ad etc.

I'd just like to state that I jumped on the MochiAds bandwagon the day of the mmf2 flash release.

I've made over $250 in 2 months adding old, or simple games.

But when it comes to advertising my game to a sponsor, its hard to be taken seriously, and I worry that they are going to have an interest in my project, pay me, and then I'm going to find out that its impossible to add the features they want in the game due to the limitations.

Of course, i'm not advertising any of my games at this time anyway, but would like to be.

For those who know, is CMPstar worth going with rather than Mochi? I understand mmf2 doesn't have an option for it, but if the day came when it did, would making the swap be worthwhile?

Also, great news about adding the mochi scoreboard and shop, looking forward to it. Not sure how the shop works though.

Have anyone tried to import a swf generated by MMF2 into another scene (If I remember correctly) in Flash, like scene 2 and have scene 1 with an ad code (such as CPMStar)?

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Originally Posted by jasonorme

For those who know, is CMPstar worth going with rather than Mochi?

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I'm also wondering if they have a similar wide spread distribution network? Or is it possible to spread games to most sites using flashgamedistribution.com instead of Mochi?

Can you upload a SWF to that?

Then yes but if they have some special features you want to access from them an object would need to be made.

Jason

I've heard from a number of sources that cpmstar pays better than mochi. Mochi is a cpm model whereas CPMstar is a cpm/cpc/cpa mix.

This is the standard for mochi

Mochiads = 50% Developer , 40% Mochi Network, 10% publisher

but if a developer hosts his game on his own site he will see

Mochiads = 60% Developer , 40% Mochi Network

If a game is viewed on a non mochi-publisher arcade site then the split is

Mochiads = 50% Developer , 50% Mochi Network

With cpmstar you have

cpmstar = 50% Developer , 25% cpmstar Network , 25% sponsor

From the 25% you can see why sponsors prefer cpmstar.

You can have cpmstar ads and mochi highscores but you forfeit any rights to place your game in mochi's distribution network.

If you manage to get your game into some of the top sites (armour,freeworldgroup,bubblebox) then your game will wittle it's way down to most sites.

Due to theme limitations I try not to add any games with width larger than 700px, an ideal size to choose when making a game would be 640x480, any smaller and your limiting your game on the available mochi ad pool.

Here's a question. Could you create a Flash game in MMF build the SWF and then use Trillix (or another Flash deconstruction app) to create a Flex file and then add any required sponsor API's etc to the Flex file and rebuild the SWF? Would you need the full version of Adobe Flash to do this?

you need Adobe Flash Builder for Flex I think...

Anything relating to flash requires flash player, of course. Flex, ActionScript, ect, or just platforms to ease programming for flash.

LB that's not what they're talking about I don't think.