What Game Design Program do you prefer?

I know this sounds kind of weird and almost stupid considering the fact that probably everyone in this forum will prefer Multimedia Fusion 2 or Games Factory 2. But I was wondering for the people of this community, what alternative game program do you prefer using other than MMF2 or GF2?

I am not much of a programmer, so I'm currently searching for a game design program that doesn't require much background knowledge in programming.
Yes, Clickteam's programs are advertised to help those who don't know much about programming make a game; but I managed to find the event editor quite puzzling, there were even times where I just say "Wait, why did it do that?" or "Where in the world is the error?" whenever I open it.
This program is a great program, but you have to apply a lot of focus to make it work the way you want it to.

I was looking through the web and found Stencyl.
Now, I haven't tested the product, but I received a basic understanding.
Stencyl includes a built-in physics engine, easy to manage UI, and adjusts events and behaviors in the form of blocks.
I was amazed of what it can do, but I've been fooled before...

What do you guys think?
Is Stencyl a good fit?, Is there better programs you think I should use, or you had a better time with?, or Should I continue with MMF2?

I hadn't heard of Stencyl, so I thought I'd have a look. First example is a simple Space Invaders type game and it wasn't bad. But then I looked at Stencylforge and it has an actor type called Mario complete with Mario icon. All I can say is Nintendo will not be pleased! And neither will Sega with the Sonic Turbo Kit. Whoever is making this really doesn't understand copyright and they should if people are going to take them seriously...

This isn't really a good question here as everyone here will tell you Multimedia Fusion 2 and this site isn't really a general game development site, its a support forum for TGF2 and MMF2.

It really depends on what you want to do -- MMF2 can make commercial quality games. Many people have done it.
Once you get over the initial learning curve its all really pretty easy.

I suggest you just keep following along some of the tutorials on the tutorial page and it will all come together.

Every program has its good and bad points.
You are the only one who can decide if the creation process and the features of the program are what you want.
Others can only give you their opinion and everyone is going to give you a alternate opinion.

Pretty soon you will run into the guy telling you to forget all these programs and just do it in C++

Note- For those who continues to read this, this thread is no longer relevant.

I'm just going to post anyway...

Stencyl is bad. Really bad. I've been developing a game professionally and the client wanted me to try out Stencyl because it apparently had some tricks to run games faster with HTML5.

Nope. Not only that, it doesn't support a pixel rounding option... Meaning scaling stuff at minor intervals will result in some popping since it's rounding up pixels to "save speed" which it really has no noticeable speed improvement, but it sure looks bad.

Also it's still very infantile in development. I was talking back and forth with the developer for it and he seemed like he had good intentions, but the product was nowhere near ready for a professional game. Also I found the code blocks thing extremely counter-intuitive. You will spend more time trying to figure out what block goes where and navigating the clunky interface more than actually just developing your game. Another thing you mentioned in your first post was sometimes you will get an error and not be sure why... Well Stencyl makes this worse. There are SIMPLE ways to totally break a game and it's hard to track down why it's broken. Like you can reference variables that don't even exist and Stencyl has no problem allowing you to do this. (it should prevent you from doing it) and then when you run your game, you can't figure out why it isn't working... because the variable you're referencing doesn't actually exist. Stuff like that can really bog down tools like this.

I would highly recommend MMF2. I just hope they can get the android exporter further along and finish up the HTML5 exporter...

The only other game dev tool I'd recommend for 2D games is Construct 2. It's a dream to work in, but it's limited to exporting strictly to HTML5. Even though it can do "native" mobile games... it's really not native. It's taking the HTML5 project exported and then using third party tools to convert it into a mobile app. Until HTML5 makes major improvements, Construct 2 will be bottlenecked by it. There's also no current plan to create a straight executable exporter and not push things through HTML5. There's also a big problem with trying to securely store/access data and files... since HTML5 is web based, it uses things like cookies to store info, which isn't really ideal for games that need secure saving and loading.

Konidias, you just reminded me why I made this thread to begin with! I wasn't just looking for an alternative game design program engine, but a reason why I should continue with MMF2.
I really want to know if this program is the best program for me.

The only true problems I had with MMF2 is that it doesn't allow behavior-group interaction (It makes sense if having an object's behavior try to interact with the group that the very same object is classified to, will glitch the coding; however, it should allow behavior-foreign group interaction), The alterable values doesn't allow decimal numbers (And yes, I tried to go around it by using math in the event editor; but even that didn't work), and even with instructions, I have difficulty applying platform physics (That's why I felt comfortable seeing Stencyl's available Box2D physics).

But I didn't even try Stencyl, so perhaps you're right; maybe it is a bad change for a novice programmer.

As for Construct 2, no way am I touching that after they turned from freeware to these odd multi-edition licenses.

Even though I stated that this thread is no longer relevant, I want to thank you for posting. It changed my perspective on my problem, and I will try to figure out more about MMF2.
In the meantime, I'm a bit stuck in the mud so I'll be working on other things on my game besides programming but I will accept help at any time.

Sounds like some of your problems are because you aren't familiar with how MMF2 works. You can use decimals, you just have to specify your values in decimals to begin with. When you set a value to 1, you'd have to do 1.0 instead or it will always use integers. I couldn't make sense of your behavior group interaction, but you can use qualifiers to add multiple actives to a group and test events with that group. A lot of times people will say MMF2 is bugged, or something doesn't work in it, and it turns out they weren't doing it right or weren't aware how you could do something to get it to work. Since you are starting out, I'm sure most of your problems could be worked out in one way or another. MMF2 is simple on the surface but actually can get extremely advanced and complicated events when you really start using it heavily.

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Originally Posted by Shawn

Sounds like some of your problems are because you aren't familiar with how MMF2 works. You can use decimals, you just have to specify your values in decimals to begin with. When you set a value to 1, you'd have to do 1.0 instead or it will always use integers. I couldn't make sense of your behavior group interaction, but you can use qualifiers to add multiple actives to a group and test events with that group. A lot of times people will say MMF2 is bugged, or something doesn't work in it, and it turns out they weren't doing it right or weren't aware how you could do something to get it to work. Since you are starting out, I'm sure most of your problems could be worked out in one way or another. MMF2 is simple on the surface but actually can get extremely advanced and complicated events when you really start using it heavily.

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I spoke with Konidias about the Alterable Value decimals earlier and he/she stated that there is a decimal option; I’m just having a hard time finding it. (I believe once I use MMF2 once again, that very option will come up and slap me right in the face!)

About the behaviors; you know the behavior option for an individual object that can make the object have its own events that can be transferred along with the object whenever the object is copied and pasted into different frames? Now the behavior event editor behaves the same as the frame event editor but it doesn't allow interactions with qualifiers (groups). Most advanced users suggested not using the behavior option anyways.

I fully understand that even working for months with MMF2 and know how almost everything works, I still have a lot to learn...

Glad you decided to stick around for now. :D MMF2 is one of those tools where it is really easy to get into but can take a long time to master.

I'm not sure if you are using the full version or not, but there are a plethora of extensions that do the hard work for you, so to speak for the full version. There is even a box2d extension that comes with a very good tutorial file with all the neat stuff you can do with it. Not to mention the Platform Movement Object which takes care of any platforming needs you might have, without needing to program your own engine (although it IS possible, DavidN made an excellent tutorial on it).

Also, the community here is great, and usually you can get any questions you have answered within a day or two if you can't find the answer by searching through the forums.

Anyways, good luck to you and hope you figure out what you need to!

I'm trying to get my purchase of MMF2 on (having a coupon issue at the moment)... :)

I own GameMaker and got it when it was on a killer deal, while investigating the two tools (MMF2 vs Gamemaker)...

I decided to go with MMF2 because of the forum and creators. The forum has been helpful, friendly and welcoming. It's super cool that the creators (ClickTeam) are still very active, helpful and open.

So, expect in the next few days... my badges to show my ownership. I can't wait to be on the "other side". :)

I believe you also get access to more forums once you do register, which is nice. :D

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Originally Posted by TheFieryPlumber

About the behaviors; you know the behavior option for an individual object that can make the object have its own events that can be transferred along with the object whenever the object is copied and pasted into different frames? Now the behavior event editor behaves the same as the frame event editor but it doesn't allow interactions with qualifiers (groups). Most advanced users suggested not using the behavior option anyways.

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Yeah that qualifier problem in behaviors is an extreme oversight which hopefully Clickteam fixes in MMF3. I also hate how animations and alterable value names for other objects imported in the behavior editor doesn't show custom names. Things need to be more modular and this needs to be fixed. Another thing that REALLY annoys me about behaviors is you can't view the events in the list view, just the default event editor layout. (You can double click an event in one line so you can view the order of events and change them, but only that one event, not the entire event editor list).

I still use behaviors though. It's just so much easier to use them rather than copying your events in every single frame or loading your levels into one frame. If you're heavily using qualifiers then the behavior route isn't going to work well of course. I actually have a project where most everything is set up in one object's behavior for the entire game so I can just use the frame editor as my level layout independent of my events. I didn't feel like making a level editor but I also didn't want to have to worry about editing events for every single frame if I found later I had a bug or problem that needed to be fixed. If you have really complex levels a level editor can be rather complicated. Once you got it fully functional it would be smooth sailing from there perhaps, but it's a lot of work (despite what some people might say here). Sometimes it's more effort than what it's worth.

However, the only reason I'm able to get away with using the behavior for the entire game is because of the type of game it is. I don't really have a need for qualifiers and have a workaround for testing the objects using flags/values.

If you do make a level editor, I would make it as game independent as possible so you could easily use it for any other project you might have. Only thing you'd have to change is the graphics for the objects.

I dunno... I've always felt like it's just easier to make a level editor and keep the game contained in a single frame, instead of trying to work in the frame editor and doing all the behaviors stuff as a workaround. Having a level editor is also just a nice bonus thing you can add to your final game release, for players to use to create their own levels.

Level editors are extremely easy to create... and once you've made one, you'll be really happy that you've made your own little custom creation tool.

I'm not saying MMF2 doesn't have room for improvement with it's editors... but I would never rely on middleman software to have everything I need to make levels for a game. No software can possibly account for every type of game you want to create from your mindgrapes.

I still take issue with the idea a level editor is "extremely easy"... yes a basic editor is extremely easy for a basic game. But when you start working with a ton of things on multiple layers etc. it can get a bit more complicated. It's entirely dependent on the game for the degree of difficulty. I'm not saying it's not worth it or won't make life easier in the long run, but telling someone upfront "oh yeah do that, it's easy" is a bit misleading unless you know what you're doing. I've made level editors before, and for what I was doing it was rather easy. For other projects, I just said to heck with it and used behaviors instead.

The only thing holding behaviors and global events back at all are the things I mentioned above, not being able to use qualifiers, the custom names for values and animations not being present for imported objects, and not being able to use the event list view. If that was fixed, the benefits would equal out. At that point, the only realistic benefits of a level editor would be for allowing players to make their own levels, your own satisfaction, or having a convenient way to create additional levels for your game at a later date without re-compiling your game (just load the external level data files into your game).

Either way, things need to be fixed in MMF3. The appeal of MMF is to make game building fast and easy. The frame editor should be more useful without having to worry about changing your events by going through each frame or having to create your own level editor (or deal with the silly limitations of behaviors and global events). Or even add a way to simplify creating level editors directly within MMF itself.

Multiple layers don't really complicate things much either... It's just loading a game as usual, only one layer at a time. When you boil it down, all a level editor/loader does, is save object data and load it back up. Does the game have an object? What are it's variables? What is it's position? What layer is it on? Save that stuff. On load, see that the object needs to be created, create it at the saved position, on the saved layer, and load in it's variables. Done. Loop through and do the same for the rest. There's really absolutely nothing else to it.

Either way, if a person is making a complicated game, it will be complicated regardless of whether they make a level editor or not. But obviously the degree of difficulty in making the game will play a factor in the degree of difficulty involved in making an editor. If people don't know that, they shouldn't be making such a difficult game in the first place.

But we can both agree that MMF3 should cover the issues MMF2 has. Something similar to Construct 2 would be nice, where event sheets and frames are independent from one another, and you just link frames to whatever event sheets you want them to use.

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Originally Posted by OldSchool80s

I'm trying to get my purchase of MMF2 on (having a coupon issue at the moment)... :)

I own GameMaker and got it when it was on a killer deal, while investigating the two tools (MMF2 vs Gamemaker)...

I decided to go with MMF2 because of the forum and creators. The forum has been helpful, friendly and welcoming. It's super cool that the creators (ClickTeam) are still very active, helpful and open.

So, expect in the next few days... my badges to show my ownership. I can't wait to be on the "other side". :)

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You know what's wierd?
I discovered Multimedia Fusion 2 because of Game Maker.

For those who are interested: A few years ago, I was browsing through Let's Plays on Youtube; when I encountered one about a Super Mario Fangame made from Game Maker. Now, it was just a typical fan game, but the person commentating it was not pleased with it. He was beating it left and right with insults and comments about the glitches and the errors almost to a point where the game itself was screaming. It was until the middle of the playthrough, when he mentioned that he too was a game designer and most of the bugs that were in the game could've been easily fixed if the designer used MMF2 instead of Game Maker.
Now in the beginning, I thought in MMF2 you can make games with little programming necessary; that's what lured me in. Now that's still true, but only if the designer just wants to make a game with very little need of quality. I'm not one of those and I really want to make games with a lot of potential; so even though MMF2 is easier to use than Java and C++, I still need to put a lot of focus and knowledge into it.

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Originally Posted by Shawn

Yeah that qualifier problem in behaviors is an extreme oversight which hopefully Clickteam fixes in MMF3. I also hate how animations and alterable value names for other objects imported in the behavior editor doesn't show custom names. Things need to be more modular and this needs to be fixed. Another thing that REALLY annoys me about behaviors is you can't view the events in the list view, just the default event editor layout. (You can double click an event in one line so you can view the order of events and change them, but only that one event, not the entire event editor list).

I still use behaviors though. It's just so much easier to use them rather than copying your events in every single frame or loading your levels into one frame. If you're heavily using qualifiers then the behavior route isn't going to work well of course. I actually have a project where most everything is set up in one object's behavior for the entire game so I can just use the frame editor as my level layout independent of my events. I didn't feel like making a level editor but I also didn't want to have to worry about editing events for every single frame if I found later I had a bug or problem that needed to be fixed. If you have really complex levels a level editor can be rather complicated. Once you got it fully functional it would be smooth sailing from there perhaps, but it's a lot of work (despite what some people might say here). Sometimes it's more effort than what it's worth.

However, the only reason I'm able to get away with using the behavior for the entire game is because of the type of game it is. I don't really have a need for qualifiers and have a workaround for testing the objects using flags/values.

If you do make a level editor, I would make it as game independent as possible so you could easily use it for any other project you might have. Only thing you'd have to change is the graphics for the objects.

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I just figured something out. What else is different between the behavior event editor and the frame event editor is that multiplayer controls are optional in the behavior event editor but only the one player appears as an option in the frame event editor.

Is there any way to include multiplayer commands in the frame event editor?