Tearing hear out over Order. Proper way to do it?

I always get loads of problems with order of objects if not using tons of layers. Is there some definite good and simple way to handle ordering of objects that works? What I am doing now is having an event that goes through all sorts of objects and moves them to the back, so I start with the objects I want in front and go down the list. For example if I want the grass to be in front, the player to be in the middle and the trees to be in the back it looks like this:

Run event once:
Move grass to back
Move player to back
Move trees to back

This does not work very well though and often objects seems to still not be in the right order, especially if they move around in the frame later.

I know there is the Layer object, I dont want to have an event running ALL the time though sorting the order of things because I have heard that can be very heavy on performance?

Hm maybe found a better way with ForEach by doing a loop for all objects once.. but still maybe easier way that don't require so many events? :) (and I am not 100% sure yet this works 100%)

use the Layer Object. It doesn't sort constantly, only when you want it to.

You could have it sort once when the level is created, and of course it's going to need to sort if objects move around.

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Originally Posted by Konidias

use the Layer Object. It doesn't sort constantly, only when you want it to.

You could have it sort once when the level is created, and of course it's going to need to sort if objects move around.

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Sort with Layer Object how? I need to specify in what order I want them to sort somehow

The Layer Object has a Sort Object By command. If you set up

Always
>Sort Objects By Y Decreasing

They will be layered right. You'll have to work with the object Hotspots to ensure layering works right. If you want a quick tutorial example on it send me an email to pkb@iol.ie and I'll send you an example file.

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Originally Posted by Paul_Boland

The Layer Object has a Sort Object By command. If you set up

Always
>Sort Objects By Y Decreasing

They will be layered right. You'll have to work with the object Hotspots to ensure layering works right. If you want a quick tutorial example on it send me an email to pkb@iol.ie and I'll send you an example file.

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Yes but that is not how I want to sort the objects. I am trying to do different "layers" without using layers. Like trees, player, enemeis, grass and so on. They will have the same Y because it is a sidesrolling platformer. It will be really clumsy if I have to adjust all the hotspots on every item, what if I create a new item and need that sorted, then I need to go into every object again and adjust the hotspot again on all items to make it right. Also I dont know of any way to do scaling that is not dependent on where the hotspot is positioned (like if you want to scale up an object equally on all sides you need to have the hotspot in the middle as far as I know)

Outcast - The Layer object is definitely the way to go IMHO.
You can have the objects sort on an alterable value using the Layer object if you don't want to use the Y coordinate, so you could set all your trees Alt Val A to 1, grass to 2, enemies to 3, player to 4, etc

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Originally Posted by AyreGuitar

Outcast - The Layer object is definitely the way to go IMHO.
You can have the objects sort on an alterable value using the Layer object if you don't want to use the Y coordinate, so you could set all your trees Alt Val A to 1, grass to 2, enemies to 3, player to 4, etc

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I tried that but did not work. I guess because how could it know how to sort them when so many objects have the same value?

Do the reverse, bring stuff to front, not send to back.

Move trees to front
Move player to front
Move grass to front.

Outcast... you'll need to post an example or a screenshot or something. Without us knowing what your game looks like, we can't advise you any more on how to set up the layering.

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Originally Posted by Konidias

Outcast... you'll need to post an example or a screenshot or something. Without us knowing what your game looks like, we can't advise you any more on how to set up the layering.

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This is not specific for a game, but I have always had problem with this. So far none of the suggestions here work (except my own with foreach, which is kind of long and clumsy)
Here is an example of Shabadage latest suggestion (does not work either)

Okay... fixed it with Layer Object. Let me know if you have questions.

Attachment 10091

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Originally Posted by Konidias

Okay... fixed it with Layer Object. Let me know if you have questions.

Attachment 10091

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Thank you Kondidias :) I must ask, why is the value multiplied by the bottom of the frame?

Glad you asked! :) The reason behind this is so that you can assign "layers" to each object while also allowing them to sort by their Y position. Since we are sorting by descending, that means the bottom most objects will draw to the front. We would run into lots of layering issues if we just let it sort the objects only by the Y position...

For example, if you have a Background object at Y position 300 and a Foreground object at Y position 295, then the Background object would be drawing in front of the Foreground object. (which we don't want)

But if we use the alterable value for the "layer" (foreground being 2) and multiply that by the bottom most Y position, then it effectively sorts all objects by their "layer" category. Basically the method I posted allows you to sort by the value of the layer number you set, PLUS the y position of the objects.

If you just sort by the value (and not the Y position) then you're going to get sort issues with the same layer objects drawing oddly on each other. (like 2 foreground objects not sorting to the proper layers, since they are both just told to draw above the other layers, but not sort themselves out)

What is happening is if you have a window that is 480 pixels high:

Objects with value 0 are sorted by their y positions from 0 to 480.
Objects with value 2 are sorted by their y positions from 0 to 480 PLUS 2*480. This ensures that objects marked with value 2 will ALWAYS sort over objects at value 0, since the final range is 960 to 1440.

So the layer object sees all these value 0 objects and sorts them from 0 to 480, and then it sees all these value 2 objects and sorts them from 960 to 1440.

Since 960 to 1440 is greater than 0 to 480, it will ALWAYS draw any value 2 object above value 0 objects... Even if the value 2 object's y position is much lower.

Yes, what you wanted was far more complicated than your example text made it seem. Glad a solution was found.

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Originally Posted by Konidias

Glad you asked! :) The reason behind this is so that you can assign "layers" to each object while also allowing them to sort by their Y position. Since we are sorting by descending, that means the bottom most objects will draw to the front. We would run into lots of layering issues if we just let it sort the objects only by the Y position...

For example, if you have a Background object at Y position 300 and a Foreground object at Y position 295, then the Background object would be drawing in front of the Foreground object. (which we don't want)

But if we use the alterable value for the "layer" (foreground being 2) and multiply that by the bottom most Y position, then it effectively sorts all objects by their "layer" category. Basically the method I posted allows you to sort by the value of the layer number you set, PLUS the y position of the objects.

If you just sort by the value (and not the Y position) then you're going to get sort issues with the same layer objects drawing oddly on each other. (like 2 foreground objects not sorting to the proper layers, since they are both just told to draw above the other layers, but not sort themselves out)

What is happening is if you have a window that is 480 pixels high:

Objects with value 0 are sorted by their y positions from 0 to 480.
Objects with value 2 are sorted by their y positions from 0 to 480 PLUS 2*480. This ensures that objects marked with value 2 will ALWAYS sort over objects at value 0, since the final range is 960 to 1440.

So the layer object sees all these value 0 objects and sorts them from 0 to 480, and then it sees all these value 2 objects and sorts them from 960 to 1440.

Since 960 to 1440 is greater than 0 to 480, it will ALWAYS draw any value 2 object above value 0 objects... Even if the value 2 object's y position is much lower.

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Oh that is really smart :) Seems like a very failsafe method! :) But I must ask, theoretically it could break if you would have like 10000 of a middleground object vs just 2 of a foreground object? I don't think that will ever be the case but just to know :)

Another related question, I would probably want to have this sort value to be the same across all objects, I am thinking alterable value Z. That is really far down in the list, if I use that value will that take up more "space" if I have that value used on all objects instead of using like alterable value A? I am thinking the system somehow have to create all the above values first or something, i am not really sure how that works.

It won't break since it's not looking at number of objects but just their value and what their y position is. :)

Also I don't think it will take up more "space" to use Alterable Value Z but I'm not totally sure. Either way I think the amount would be not worth worrying about. I'm pretty sure active objects already set aside memory for A-Z variables...

nv....

Ok so I have a new problem now, how can I make a new object sort itself to the right order? I tried to make the layer sort everything through again once a new object is created, and while that works very good in regular runtime, in flash it makes the game freeze for about half a second..

Is it possible to somehow only do the ordering bit on some objects, (like the new created one) It is really annoying that something so "simple" as object ordering is always causing so much trouble :/

Object ordering is definitely not simple, as you are slowly discovering. :P

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Originally Posted by Konidias

Object ordering is definitely not simple, as you are slowly discovering. :P

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I mean it should be =P I am at a loss now on how to order a new object if it is created later at runtime.. any suggestions?

You could attempt to just use the normal MMF "move behind object" thing.... but honestly you probably have to run the layer object sort action again. There's no way to just "sort one" because it needs to look at all the objects in order to know where to sort that one. What you're asking it to do is "Put this card into the proper arrangement in this blind deck of cards". MMF has no idea what to do. It needs to know all the other cards to make the proper action. But it's not like the layer object is storing all of the info for where every object is layered... The Layer object is merely running through the objects the one time and sorting them at that time. Then it throws away the sort information.

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Originally Posted by Konidias

You could attempt to just use the normal MMF "move behind object" thing.... but honestly you probably have to run the layer object sort action again. There's no way to just "sort one" because it needs to look at all the objects in order to know where to sort that one. What you're asking it to do is "Put this card into the proper arrangement in this blind deck of cards". MMF has no idea what to do. It needs to know all the other cards to make the proper action. But it's not like the layer object is storing all of the info for where every object is layered... The Layer object is merely running through the objects the one time and sorting them at that time. Then it throws away the sort information.

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Hm I can try that, I can run the layer sorting thing on regular exe runtime, but in flash it freezes the game for 1 second every time a new object is created :/

There must be some way to do this that works well in all runtimes? How do people manage order generally?

No matter what way you slice it, if you're trying to insert an object in between a bunch of other object layers, you'll need to first find the objects that either need to draw under it or over it. There's no way around that.

Say you have this:

O = objects over the one you want to place
U = objects under the one you want to place
V = object you want to place


OOOOOOOVUUUUUUUUUU

In order for you to tell MMF (or any program) "place V right here", the program needs to know where "here" is. You can't just "insert" it between the Os and Us, because there isn't a between.

It's like a shelf of books, and you're trying to stick a book in the middle where there's no space. All of the books need to be sorted in order to make room for the new one. (or at least you need to push over one side of the books to clear a spot for the middle)

You can't just stick an object where there is no "space" for it.

Also, Flash is on the way out. I really don't think you should bother exporting a game to it at this point.

But how do people go around this? I still don't feel it should be this much trouble just to display stuff in the right order. What exactly does the "Move behind" and "Move in front of object" events do to the "bookshelf"?

About Flash, it may be declining, but Flash is in fact the only area I still make any money at this point. I made over $1000 this month from my Flash games. It would like to go over more to mobile, but I find the lack of Box2D extension in those areas still extremely lacking. I am looking around for an alternative to develop for mobile, but I really hope MMF will get some mobile Box2D support, I feel that it needs to happen eventually, and sooner rather then later (it is already quite late).

Maybe it is better to use different layers for objects? The problem then is to handle collisions, but I think I remember you had some system for doing collisions with X and Y cordinates konidias that was not dependent on overlaps on same layer?