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Thread: Is the animation system is weird?

  1. #1
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 DeveloperSWF Export Module
    N64Mario's Avatar
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    Is the animation system is weird?

    Like, in just a general game programming language, I would expect to do sprite animation like this set up:
    Standing animation
    Sprite 1: 10 frames/seconds
    Sprite 2: 5 frames/seconds
    Sprite 3: 4 frames/seconds
    Sprite 4: 6 frames/seconds
    Where each frame of sprite has their own display timer, until the next sprite frame is displayed.

    But instead, Ct Fusion's animation logic is like this:
    [Direction Options]
    Speed: 50
    [Frames]
    Sprite 1: [Frame 1] [Frame 2] [Frame 3] [Frame 4] [Frame 5] [Frame 6] [Frame 7] [Frame 8] [Frame 9] [Frame 10]
    Sprite 2: [Frame 11] [Frame 12] [Frame 13] [Frame 14] [Frame 15]
    Sprite 3: [Frame 16] [Frame 17] [Frame 18] [Frame 19]
    Sprite 4: [Frame 20] [Frame 21] [Frame 22] [Frame 23] [Frame 24] [Frame 25]
    In other words, each frame does NOT have their own individual display time limit. So if you want the same sprite to be displayed longer, you copy it into the next frame until you want to display a new sprite frame.
    Is this because CT Fusion's engine still dates back to Klik&Play days?

    Will the sprite animation system be like this in Fusion 3? Or will it be slightly different closer to the previous option? While the animation system in CT Fusion 2.5 is easier, the logic seems wrong in programming. I would like to have the option to be able to display a single sprite frame as long as I need without being forced to make multiple copies of the same sprite, before going to the next new frame.

    I read somewhere that Fusion 3 will be able to use sprite sheets. But I wonder how the display times will work for each frame of the sprites.

  2. #2
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 Developer

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    yeah i think it is coz of legacy, & its annoying, u have to copy pages & pages of the same frame sumtimes clickteam said u will b able to set the duration for each individual frame in fusion 3. but i dont think we r gonna get it in fusion 2 unfortunately on the plus side tho, duplicate frames dont appear to take up any extra memory.

    wat i did tho is store all my frames in one animation, & created my own animation timing routine with events. then just use "force to frame" to display the one i want at the correct time.

  3. #3
    Clicker Fusion 2.5Android Export Module

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    You could also slow the animation down like this "frame=0" ----> set animation speed to 2 then on frame 1 set speed back to whatever you want. That way you at least don't have to duplicate the frame so many times. A few maybe. It depends on how long you want it displayed of course :-) you could also do what shinbaxter does. On first frame set speed to 0 and set alt value a to 5 then every 1 second + alt value a >1 subtract 1 then when alt value = 1 you set the speed to normal again (just on the top of my head) :-)

  4. #4
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 (Steam)Fusion 2.5 Developer (Steam)Android Export Module (Steam)HTML5 Export Module (Steam)iOS Export Module (Steam)Universal Windows Platform Export Module (Steam)
    Rayek's Avatar
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    That is why I sincerely hope Fusion 3 will finally integrate a true animation timeline. I currently work in Godot, and the built-in animation timeline not only allows for any parameter to be controlled over time, and animate 2d characters with bones/IK, but also extend sprite frames easily.

    In three words: absolutely friggin' fantastic - to have a built-in timeline. It opens up so many possibilities. For example, in the open source "Dolphin Island 2" game the player sprite consists of three animation layers: the top part, the bottom part, and the effects. The game's code then controls each timeline to mix and match sprite animations and dub those animations with sound(s) in the timeline as well.

    To see how incredibly convenient a timeline for animated sprites can be, check out the project and load it up in Godot, then open the player scene in the scenes folder. https://github.com/janmarcano/Dolphin-Island-2

    Now that I've gotten used to having a true animation editor/timeline in a game engine, I really hope the Clickteam devs will at least consider a similar approach in Fusion 3.

    However, after seeing the response from the developers when I inquired about such a timeline in F3, I am afraid they either will not add it themselves, or at least not in the foreseeable future. Or a third-party developer might perhaps add it at some time, since Fusion 3 will have a very open architecture.

    Anyway, just check Godot's animation timelines for inspiration.

  5. #5
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 DeveloperSWF Export Module
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    Yea, I think I'm really looking forward to Fusion 3. My only gripe is, I doubt we'll be able to convert our old F2.5 projects over to F3. All that hard work, only to start the same game from scratch in a new software development engine.

  6. #6
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    I think the timeline method became popular with the rise of Flash, so now everyone uses it in their development environments. But as someone who keyframes his animations (in Photoshop), the F2.5 way makes total sense. They are just 2 approaches, each with pros and cons. Duplicating the same frame doesn't increase memory because Fusion2.5 recognizes duplicate image data and discards it at build time. Or so I am told...

  7. #7
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    A properly integrated animation timeline (including nested timelines) is so much more than merely an alternative approach to Fusion's current frame-based animation editor, though. Almost any property can be controlled: cameras, objects, properties of objects, functions/scripts can be fired, variables be changed, particle systems controlled over time, timelines can be mixed, IK-based animations are possible with blending between states, timers can be started and ended, and so on, and so forth. It opens up entirely new possibilities, far beyond simple sprite animations (which are simplified and become more powerful as well). Animated cut-scenes that seamlessly switch to game play... The sky's the limit!

    A timeline like the one in Godot that integrates on a low level in a game engine (also see the new Unity animation timeline) can't be compared to a simple frame-based sprite animation editor. It's akin to comparing MS Paint with Photoshop.

    After being exposed to animation editors like these, I'd just go crazy not having one in Fusion 3. Here's hoping...

  8. #8
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 DeveloperSWF Export Module
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobichan View Post
    I think the timeline method became popular with the rise of Flash, so now everyone uses it in their development environments. But as someone who keyframes his animations (in Photoshop), the F2.5 way makes total sense. They are just 2 approaches, each with pros and cons. Duplicating the same frame doesn't increase memory because Fusion2.5 recognizes duplicate image data and discards it at build time. Or so I am told...
    If that's the case, then I guess I shouldn't have to worry too much. I was just afraid that even before exporting as EXE or to whatever system, the MFA source file becomes larger because of duplicate frames. Just makes more sense to me to give the same exact frame a different time stamp, rather than duplication every time.

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    ive tested it before , so i can confirm that the duplicates frames don't take up any extra file size, (i was sweating about that one to ) but wat they DO is take up space on the timeline lol. but thats not that bad now as in the latest fusion build u can expand the panel at the bottom a bit to see more frames at once.

  10. #10
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 (Steam)Fusion 2.5 Developer (Steam)Fusion 2.5+ DLC (Steam)Android Export Module (Steam)HTML5 Export Module (Steam)iOS Export Module (Steam)Universal Windows Platform Export Module (Steam)
    Volnaiskra's Avatar
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    I think the animation editor is very weird, in too many ways to mention (the duplicate frame issue is far from the weirdest!). But its weirdness just encouraged me to seek out external ways of animating (I ended up choosing Toon Boom Harmony).

    So now, I barely have anything to do with the animation editor beyond importing fully animated sequences into it, and its weirdness doesn't really bother me anymore (kind of how many people feel about the image editor if they use photoshop etc).

    I'm very intrigued by the type of animation editor Rayek mentions, but even then I mightn't actually use it. I tend do too much with my animation to be able to do it real-time. Spryke has some thirty moving parts and a couple hundred nodes, once you factor in effects, warps, particles, etc. If I tried to do that with in-engine bones or anything like that, it'd probably be way too complicated or cpu intensive. So pre-rendered is the only feasible way for me.

    All I'm saying I guess is that many users need different things from the animation editor, and even if Clickteam built the most amazing solution for one particular workflow, it may still end up servicing only a minority of users.

    While I don't expect Clickteam to build a fully featured animation editor, I do think it's very important that Fusion 3 integrates well with 3rd-party animation solutions that provide pre-rigged game animations, like Spriter, Spline, and Toon Boom Harmony. (But perhaps that's essentially what Rayek is already talking about with the Godot example.)

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