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Thread: Fusion 2.5 Microstuttering (moved from Fusion 3 status thread)

  1. #231
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 DeveloperFusion 2.5+ DLCiOS Export ModuleInstall Creator Pro
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrilley View Post
    I am really curious how the relationship between Fusion and its rendering works. For instance I know that Fusion can work just fine with a crashed/frozen rendering(I have black belt in crashing Fusion graphics!) making it possible to continue playing your games when the graphics appear to be stuck frozen.

    So I am curious how the graphic updates in relation to Fusion, is it possible it can get left behind during some frames or is it tightly locked to Fusion's "loops"? Does these tests give CT any ideas/clues at all?
    So I had a run with your new tool too and the results are similar to what you posted. Fusion is most definitively able to process the frames in the needed intervall. If you set the Framerate to 61 and sync to 60 it lowers the frametimes a bit and smoothes the curve even more. Frametimes would then always be < 16,7 ms. As I found with my Fraps recordings setting a FR higher than 61 has no additional effect on this.

    As you said and as @conceptgame explained very well FRAPS hooks to Direct 3D functions and I think therefore measures more exactly what frametimes are actually experienced on screen than measuring Fusion's frame duration using the microtimer. It seems the black box how Fusion exactly communicates with the Direct 3D APIs and how proecessed frames are called and displayed is of great importance for this issue. Yet I understand very little to nothing about it

    edit: and yes, everybody using this should update the microtimer before, otherwise it crashes :P

  2. #232
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 DeveloperFusion 2.5+ DLCHTML5 Export ModuleiOS Export ModuleSWF Export ModuleInstall Creator Pro
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    Yeah even beyond the micro stutter issue I am just curious how Fusion works under the hood, graphics rendering included. I love reading about that kind of stuff! It's one of the few areas I'm sort of missing from the documentation.

    Btw, do you know of any other benchmark tools for frametimes that we could try and test with @Julian82 ?

  3. #233
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    NVidia has a toolset to hook to the display output later in the rendering pipeline, but I don't have this setup available. I found a series of essentially good articles on the topic explaining the technical background of microstuttering and how frametimes can be measured, a critical review of FRAPS included. Anyway it's somehow suggested that FRAPS does a pretty good job in the end, especially when it comes to the question how good a game engine does its part of the job, and that methods later in the rendering pipeline do not neccesarily produce more accurate results, at least not for single core setups.



    https://techreport.com/review/21516/...enchmarking/11

    https://techreport.com/review/24553/...-capture-tools

    https://techreport.com/blog/28679/is...e-measurements


  4. #234
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 (Steam)Fusion 2.5 Developer (Steam)Fusion 2.5+ DLC (Steam)Android Export Module (Steam)HTML5 Export Module (Steam)iOS Export Module (Steam)Universal Windows Platform Export Module (Steam)

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    Hey all,

    i have tested around now the last 2 weeks like a maniac with different game engines, godot 2/3, gamemaker 2, unity, construct 2/3, coppercube.

    And i must say im very depressed now, because and this is no joke, all of the tested engines have issues like microstutter/jittering/hiccups or however you wanna call it.

    I played around with basic projects on each engine and also have installed finished games and tried them (desktop, html5, android - whatever i could find). I researched there forums for reports, possible solutions etc. And there are literally thousands of people having that problem.
    The issue is very big in general in the industrie looks like, lot of people are reporting/crying about that on various forums. But nobody is able to provide a solution.
    Not even on the unity forums, and unity is a very big engine with lot of devs, they are able to fix it, there is not even a statement by unity itself but its pretty clear they have a big issue with that also for years.

    The worst experience i had by far with godot and construct, these engines stutter/jitter so much with scrolling backgrounds or objects its unusable in my opinion.

    Gamemaker 2 had the same jittering issue for me, its the same as if i use Fusion with VsyncON, everything is buttersmooth but suddenly it hiccups, looks like the game stops for 1/4 of a second or something and than continues.
    Also changing the sleep-margin and framerate like reported here on that thread dos NOT help.

    Coppercube was very smooth overall but also sometimes the hiccups are noticable but very minimal.

    I could now of course spend more time on that, buy 500 different computers and spend the rest of my life to that stuttering issue on various platforms but it really looks like its not worth it^^.
    In my opinion when you look how wide spread that issue is -> reported on numerous different hardware, platforms, monitors (hz-rate, vsync, gsync, freesync), game-engines, renderers etc, it is very clear there is something totaly wrong in the industrie with the underlaying technologie i would say, otherwise the problem would already been tracked down and fixed.

    Also i wanna say sorry again to @clickteam @Simon for accusing you to not trying to fix that issue, i'm sure you guys do everything you can,
    Big Thanks for that

  5. #235
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    Gosh Manuel, that's some über detective work there - above and beyond! Thank you for taking the time to do all of that. Did you measure and graph the frame stutter to compare between the engines or did you make your observations visually?

  6. #236
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 (Steam)Fusion 2.5 Developer (Steam)Fusion 2.5+ DLC (Steam)Android Export Module (Steam)HTML5 Export Module (Steam)iOS Export Module (Steam)Universal Windows Platform Export Module (Steam)

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    I'm not sure if you mean this sarcastic now or not but to answer you question: I can see it, like a lot of other people also, i didn't measure anything. I dont really know how that would help me, i could also not fix it that way.

  7. #237
    Clickteam Clickteam
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    No I was not being sarcastic

  8. #238
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 (Steam)Fusion 2.5 Developer (Steam)Fusion 2.5+ DLC (Steam)Android Export Module (Steam)HTML5 Export Module (Steam)iOS Export Module (Steam)Universal Windows Platform Export Module (Steam)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    just to be clear only 200 members have viewed this thread. Just under 98% of the remainder after those users' repeat views are down to various search engine crawlers due to the topic having been in the "Recent Activity" XML feed quite frequently. So, the 10,000 stated is wholly unrepresentative......The scale of the problem is limited, so we have to take action on balance with all of this when dealing with it.
    Yes, like all problems, the number of people who encounter it or are bothered by it is limited. Yet I suspect it would be difficult to find any other thread - about any other problem - that has even half of the activity that this one has. And that activity includes a large number of different individuals reporting that they witness the microstuttering. Also, remember that until a few months ago, barely anyone in the community even had the vocabulary to describe this problem, so almost no one ever talked about it: a read through the earlier pages shows account after account of people who have noticed the microstuttering for years, but never knew how to prove it, test for it, or even describe it.

    Considering the previous obscurity of the issue, the response this thread has garnered in such a short time is really quite staggering. If this forum is in any way an illustrative sample size of Clickteam's wider customer base - and it probably is to some extent - then we should assume that microstuttering affects a similarly substantial percentage of the user base, as well as anyone who plays a Fusion-made game and/or anyone shopping around for a 2D game engine.

    Whether or not this is easy or even possible to solve is of course a different question. But IMO the responses on this thread show overwhelmingly that this is an issue that Clickteam shouldn't underestimate.


    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    We understand that some users who are pushing the engine extra hard are experiencing the issue...
    Actually, reading through this thread makes it clear that the problem has very little, if anything, to do with pushing the engine. Many people have reported microstuttering on all-but-empty MFAs, such as the simple MFAs that have been uploaded in this thread. I myself have seen no difference in microstuttering between a simple demo MFA and a full game with heavy load.

  9. #239
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    Yves is still looking at this however I would refer you to Manuel's findings, which Clearly show that this is not limited to Fusion. Given his wide range of packages demonstrating the issue, we have to consider the possibility that this is something like a hardware &/ DirectX/Windows issue.

  10. #240
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    @Manuel

    I had terrible stuttering in Godot 2.1 at first, until I discovered that vsync must be turned off for windowed games, and turned on for full screen games.
    Crazy enough just the presence of a window border would degrade the performance, while maximizing that same window would run it smooth. Obviously you should turn off debug mode, and build the game before running it.

    Once I knew about the vsync thing, Godot 2 games ran smoothly for me. Godot 3 improved thing further. I get very smooth game play with large parallax backgrounds now.

    With Fusion, same story. No difference - although compared to Godot 3, even a simple game like
    https://community.clickteam.com/threads/91151-Balloons-An-example-of-a-complete-shooting-game
    doesn't run as smooth as games in Godot 3 for me, no matter the screen settings. The same regular micro-stutter occurs, but aside from that there is a degradation in performance that causes jittery movement while playing.

    Then again, I have played other Fusion 2.5 games that seemed to have no issues, other than the occasional micro-stutter.

    Like you, I tested various engines (Construct, Fusion, Godot, plain javascript with Phaser) and all sorts of 2d games to see how they performed.

    No matter the "native" smoothness of the engines and the games I tested, one thing keeps popping up: every 10 seconds or so a small micro-stutter occurs. I replaced my old GTX590 with a brand new GTX1080 two months ago, and that micro stutter persists. I changed from Windows 7 to 10 a year ago, and still that stutter persists, although on Windows 10 it is much less apparent.

    I tested DirectX and OpenGL 2d games: no matter what, that micro stutter doesn't go away. I also did testing on Mac and Linux and built the same games to test, and micro-stuttering seems a lesser issue on those platforms. One game of mine ran absolutely smooth on a Mac I was teaching on, and I was amazed to see no micro-stuttering at all for about 30 seconds.

    The micro-stutter persists in commercial games just as much. Some games seem to have less of an issue compared to others, but still. Shantae:Risky's Revenge is terrible, while Pixeljunk shooter seems to run smooth (with regular occasional micro-stutter). The stutter happens in ALL 2d games.

    Over the years I have come to the conclusion, similar to you, that we have three reasons for stuttering:
    1) game performance issues. Such as Shantae, which starts to stutter when multiple enemies are on the screen. This may also be the case when games are run in a browser environment (which is why I gave up on Construct).
    2) "bad" screen settings/preferences. For example, Godot windowed games with Vsync turned on. Full screen often works better.
    3) hardware/driver and/or OS based micro stutters.

    The last one I haven't been able to solve, other than testing the game on different hardware and OSs.

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