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Thread: Fusion 2.5 Microstuttering (moved from Fusion 3 status thread)

  1. #211
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 DeveloperFusion 2.5+ DLCAndroid Export ModuleiOS Export Module
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    Although I find it a good approach to get objective measurements of this issue, I would be cautious about using only one measurement tool. Fraps is installing its own function hooks. The hooks are simply JMP operations assembled ad-hoc at the beginning of Direct3D API functions. It may have a small or big influence on the results, especially if you compare with other games rendering with different APi like OpenGL.
    Fraps is certainly a good tool but it may be not so suitable for some of the configuration comparisons.

    I am not saying that there is no isssue though. Just that it is not so obvious and involving other parameters than Fusion rendering.
    Debugging such issues can be really time-consuming and may involve changing third party drivers like rendering dlls.

    In any case, I think taht Mathias' approach is worth the try.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by conceptgame View Post
    Although I find it a good approach to get objective measurements of this issue, I would be cautious about using only one measurement tool. Fraps is installing its own function hooks. The hooks are simply JMP operations assembled ad-hoc at the beginning of Direct3D API functions. It may have a small or big influence on the results, especially if you compare with other games rendering with different APi like OpenGL.
    Fraps is certainly a good tool but it may be not so suitable for some of the configuration comparisons.

    I am not saying that there is no isssue though. Just that it is not so obvious and involving other parameters than Fusion rendering.
    Debugging such issues can be really time-consuming and may involve changing third party drivers like rendering dlls.

    In any case, I think taht Mathias' approach is worth the try.
    Good points, especially as Chrilley's finding suggests that this problem may very well be hooked to the Direct X9 runtime. X9 is pretty outdated now, my system is on 11, for example, and who knows if X9 is still works well with modern setups. Googeling the topic in genral a lot of threads pop up where people had updated their Direct X and older games started to stutter. Also, it seems GM2 (which runs good), is using both recent Direct X and Open GL versions, depending on the runtime.

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manuel View Post
    Hello @Simon ,

    i am sorry if my comment was a bit to harsh for you.

    But you have to consider my (the users) point of view, because when i research, the stuttering issue was reported long time (years) ago but never fixed - and thats the point for me. Now all that comes back to you, because its such a big problem for the users that you should never have ignored that for so long!

    Than when your new software is around you say things like "Fusion 2.5 late stage of lifespan - stuttering may not be fixed for numerous reasons...". I mean how should people feel now when you say something like that? You dont fix that issue for years and than you put out a comment like that, .... really? (That was also the reason for my previous post.)

    I have invested lot of my money, around 900 Euros (Fusion 2.5 + all Exporters) into you Software, thats not cheap, for that price you actually could expect that things getting fixed properly, regardless if there is a new version of Fusion being released or not.

    Manuel, we didn't ignore it. Yves has already clearly stated that he looked at the code previously and could not find anything in there which could be causing the problem. He is looking into it again, but there is no guarantee we can find anything this time either. There's no certainty that it's actually even Fusion's fault - there are plenty of examples of games developed outside of Fusion which exhibit the same problem too. This is still a marginal issue, whether or not you wish to hear that. As I have previously said I've tested this on the following machines:

    CPU GPU RAM
    Desktop PC Intel Core i7-6700L (4 cores, 8 threads) @ 4 GHz GeForce GTX 980 with 4GB GDDR5 32GB DDR4
    Mac Mini 2011 Intel i5-2410 (2 cores, 4 threads) @ 2.3 GHz Intel HD 3000 with 288MB shared RAM 2GB DDR3
    Acer Aspire 5750G Laptop Intel Core i5-2410M (2 cores, 4 threads) @ 2.3 GHz Intel HD 3000 + NVIDIA GeForce GT 540M - 2 GB 4GB DDR3
    Linx 10 Tablet Intel Atom Processor Z3735F (4 cores, 4 threads) @ 1.33 GHz (1.83 GHz turbo) Intel HD for Atom Z3700 2GB LPDDR3

    I point blank cannot reproduce the microstuttering on any of these machines and they represent a very varied mix of specs. I've tried on Windows 7 and 10 and even done tests with CPU load simulation running in the background. I've tried on monitors, tablet displays, laptop display and even a DLP projector! I just cannot get a result which matches the experience some people are reporting. Danny similarly has done various tests and cannot see the problem either. So it is not a universal problem. Don't forget this is done with a test MFA made by Volnaiskra, amongst other things.

    As conceptgame also correctly states the methodolgy of using Fraps may be flawed, even to the point of introducing delays/error itself. People here are assuming this is Fusion's fault, and that if it is we can fix it - neither thing is certain. We are doing work to try to determine what the case is.

    Please just give Yves some time to look at this, but we can make no promises.

  4. #214
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    I can only get my two laptop specs when I have my laptops, which will be in a few days.
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  5. #215
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    I gotta say, I'm super confused about this. I think there are too many things going on at once.
    I think we need super simple .mfa that will stutter for some people and not for some. Then, we could measure the stuttering using the FRAPS tool for example (just to see if our outputs differs)!
    At first, we need to check the example without FRAPS running in the background as we don't know if that can cause stuttering as well.

    After that, we should measure using FRAPS and post the results here. We should be seeing very different kind of outputs that way. It would clear things up!

    By the way, I'm getting some micro-stuttering from using deltatime, I will need to take a closer look, though, as it can be a problem with scrolling rather than stuttering. You know, value going from 0,xxx to 1,xxx -> and jumping that pixel, appearing to stutter.

    However, at the moment we have too many "yes", "no", "ifs" and "buts".

  6. #216
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    ok, somebody make mfa with different settings. We will make own testings and attach results.

  7. #217
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    it may well be a nvidia issue or similar...

  8. #218
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    As I've watched and participated in this thread from the beginning I thought it's probably useful to sum up some stuff at this point. So here's a list of what we have.

    1. The issue how to correctly measure Microstuttering: I personally think the question wheter Fraps may corrupt the output or not is something to keep in mind but it won't really help us. Fraps is a widely accepted benchmarking tool for measuring frametimes used by tech blogs and game cirtiques, so I think we should better trust it. The examples made at the beginning of this thread made by Vol and Schroedinger using the Microtimer extension also were able to measure the inconsistent frametimes, of course you can questions this method too, but again, it won't help us. We have to use some tool to quantify it, otherwise we can stop right here and do something else.

    edit: and we should stick to the recording setup real fusslcreen (otherwise Windows will handle the display output and corrupt stuff), Vsync on, idle frame, 1920 x 1080 resolution (if possible).

    2. Is Microstuttering a Fusion exclusive issue? For sure not, but our findings suggest that Fusion games on Direct X9 are not not doing very well compared to a couple of other games measured on the same systems (I did Flynn/GM2, Axiom Verge/custom, Iconoclasts/ Construct classic, Volgarr/ custom, Hollow Knight/ Unity). The reason is unclear tho.

    3. Is Microstuttering associated with the Direct X9 runtime? A lot speaks for this. Chrilley and I had no microstuttering at all when recording our games and idle frames on Direct X8. Direct X9 is super outdated now and the internet isf full of threads discussing issues of older X9 dependent games showing microstuttering on modern systems. From my gut feeling this may be the main issue of this microstuttering thing and probably something CT will not be able to fix with reasonable resources. What sets other recorded engines and games clearly apart from Fusion is that they all use up to date DirectX or OpenGL. Game Maker games were known to microstutter too before the last engine update to the latest rendering APIs.

    4. Is Microstuttering a factor of sleep margins and buffering? For sure this factors will count. With the help of Mathias I was able to cause Microstuttering in a well running GM2 Game by setting the sleep margin of the CPU lower than 10ms. I was also able to kick my PCs ass and improve Performance by setting a very high sleep margin of 99ms (which practically disables ideling of the CPU at all).
    Also, setting a framerate of 61 in Fusion and syncing to 60 FPS alleviated microstuttering my 4 systems a lot, but it is not a consistent thing, as it had no effect for J3sseM. Mathias provided a code example that IMO should be applied to the Fusion runtime if this is possible within a reasonable invest, to try if it improves the issue.

    If we can't get this fixed in F2.5 I'm ok with it. But I hope this thread will at least help F3 not to show this (and I'll record first day, I promise :P)

  9. #219
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 (Steam)Fusion 2.5 Developer (Steam)Fusion 2.5+ DLC (Steam)Android Export Module (Steam)HTML5 Export Module (Steam)iOS Export Module (Steam)Universal Windows Platform Export Module (Steam)

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    @Julian82 Install Firefly, there is an option to switch between OpenGL and DirectX9, but it makes no difference the stuttering is exactly the same on both.

  10. #220
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 DeveloperFusion 2.5+ DLCiOS Export ModuleInstall Creator Pro
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    That's very interesting, Manuel. Anyway Firefly is a completely different beast with even more factors involved... makes it not easier I don't own Firefly (or is there a free version?), so I cannot test this on my systems.

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