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Thread: List of Joystick 2 Device names

  1. #31
    Clicker

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    SirEatAlot's Avatar
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    wow, all of this is very interesting and important stuff to know if you're looking to release a game commercially using fusion.. I'm also looking to release on steam and gamepad support is a must.. this will cause all kinds of problems unless a solution is found. It can be really hard to bounce back from bad reviews on steam so this will make it very hard to succeed on what is the most important market for indie games.

    I really wish clickteam would chime in on this.. The 2.5+ update seemed to be focused on the more demanding developers, functional gamepad support on steam would be great as part of that package IMHO.

  2. #32
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 (Steam)Fusion 2.5+ DLC (Steam)

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    I only own one known Click title on Steam - Environmental Station Alpha. The game appears to have been made with MMF2 and it has good gamepad support. Never noticed any issues there. I take it this only effects Steam?

  3. #33
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 DeveloperAndroid Export ModuleUniversal Windows Platform Export Module

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    DirectInput is extremely outdated. It hasn't seen a major update in almost 20 years.

    Part of the issue with it is that there are likely thousands of different devices spanning back to the 90s. In my experience, there is no "one size fits all" solution to using it in Fusion projects. You basically have to make your control configuration as flexible as possible (which doesn't always end well).

    Xbox Gamepad Object isn't as terrible as it seems, but it does take some effort to make it do certain things. You're going to be assigning values, messing with them, etc. Perhaps the solution to the gamepad issue is an Xinput object that has more features and is easier for less experienced users to understand.

    @Volnaiskra has a pretty good idea on being able to catch the Steam gamepad config. This might do better as an update to the Steamworks object.

  4. #34
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 DeveloperFusion 2.5+ DLCiOS Export ModuleInstall Creator Pro
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progject View Post
    I only own one known Click title on Steam - Environmental Station Alpha. The game appears to have been made with MMF2 and it has good gamepad support. Never noticed any issues there. I take it this only effects Steam?
    I also get the behavior on my machines if I run an XInput emulation on my desktop (like PS4 gamepad with DS4). It has been a while, but I think the issues there only occurred with more than one device connected. And for many players joy2 actually seems to work on Steam, I think many may not use the Steam gamepad configurations at all, I never knew this even existed before I had those issues. Aggelos and Dark Devotion are examples of Fusion games that suffer from it. I had no issues with ESA either. However, there are plenty of hacks available, just some players won’t accept that as a solution for whatever reason. I went with a double config for now so players can choose to use joy2 for Outbuddies, but the recommended default will be XInput.

  5. #35
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 (Steam)Fusion 2.5 Developer (Steam)Fusion 2.5+ DLC (Steam)Android Export Module (Steam)HTML5 Export Module (Steam)iOS Export Module (Steam)Universal Windows Platform Export Module (Steam)
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    It's interesting that with so much work going into dark devotion from clickteam (this as I understand it is the origin of ) they still ignored the gamepad issue. It's bizarre how this is such a blind spot for them

  6. #36
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 (Steam)Fusion 2.5+ DLC (Steam)

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    I think some sort of response from a Clickteam staff member would be really good here - even if it's just some.thoughts, ideas, whether a new extension or revised Joypad2 extension is in the works. I wonder how many are sleepwalking into this problem.

    I must say, I'm feeling a little deflated at the idea of possibly re-tooling the way my game's controls work.

    Would disabling the Steam gamepad configurations, if possible, be a huge issue and would it resolve the issue?

  7. #37
    Clicker Fusion 2.5Fusion 2.5+ DLC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progject View Post
    I think some sort of response from a Clickteam staff member would be really good here - even if it's just some.thoughts, ideas, whether a new extension or revised Joypad2 extension is in the works. I wonder how many are sleepwalking into this problem.

    I must say, I'm feeling a little deflated at the idea of possibly re-tooling the way my game's controls work.

    Would disabling the Steam gamepad configurations, if possible, be a huge issue and would it resolve the issue?
    Clickteam has responded about this: https://www.clickteam.com/clickteam-blog?p=game-controllers-in-f3

    I don't wanna see another Fusion 2.5 DLC *controller edition* (before F3)... Feels like I'm playing Street Fighter!! I'm ready for F3. Never mind the controller issues... Fusion 2.5's coordinate system and the fact that you have to create tempVars to store intermediate positions should be enough to send chills down your spines!

  8. #38
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 DeveloperFusion 2.5+ DLCHTML5 Export ModuleiOS Export Module
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    Clickteam has responded about this: https://www.clickteam.com/clickteam-blog?p=game-controllers-in-f3

    I don't wanna see another Fusion 2.5 DLC *controller edition* (before F3)
    I read that post the day it was posted. Also read the other posts about F3 on the blog over 3 years now. Maybe that's where the 3 comes from

    What i got from the controller blog post was that clickteam already has and is using what a lot of its user base wants. a library called GLFW. Apart from that it mentions abd has pictures of a lot of controllers that realistically not many people use anymore. Most players would use either Original Xbox, Xbox One, PS3, PS4, Logitech or a switch controller. Personally i would be happy if they added decent support for that range of controllers. Detect those controllers and give us some decent instruction on how to make a controller selector in our projects. Any one that wants to be a dinosaur and use Atari stick or Super Nintendo or a plank of wood with micro switches ect can use an emulator. I don't want another DLC either for controllers. It should be part of the main engine and given as an unpaid update like other updates are given to us for PC. IOS. Android, Html5 ect, Note IOS now supports PS4 controllers. More players will be looking to use controllers on Tablet. That's just a new issue to add to the list.

  9. #39
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 (Steam)Fusion 2.5 Developer (Steam)Fusion 2.5+ DLC (Steam)Android Export Module (Steam)HTML5 Export Module (Steam)iOS Export Module (Steam)Universal Windows Platform Export Module (Steam)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edel View Post
    For Fusion 3, we’re using a library called GLFW which, amongst other things, happens to have basic controller support in the form of “buttons” and “axis”... The XBox controller also has analog trigger buttons, which along with the two joysticks, make up 6 “axis”: horizontal and vertical for each joystick and then one for each analog trigger button.
    OMG, I don't friggin' believe it. It sounds like they're straight on the path to making the same mistake they made with the xbox gamepad extension. This really peeves me, actually. Clickteam, joystick axes are not enough! On their own joystick axes let you turn the joystick into a simulation of the dpad, and that's about it. And not even a very good dpad at that. Here are just some of the problems with an axes-only approach:

    no 360-degree movement
    the user will have to use un-user-friendly trigonometry to convert the linear information of axes into the radial information of 360 movement

    effectively no analog movement at all (ie. no 'strength' detection)
    OK, so let's say you have a simple 2-directional movement, and you want to use analog movement, to make the character move slowly if you feather the stick. Naturally, the developer will need some way to gauge the strength of the stick. Now let's say the X axis of the joystick goes from -1000 to 1000. So when the player pushes the stick all the way to the right, X is 1000. Well, the problem is that X will almost never be 1000. Sometimes the player will push the stick a few degrees to the north or to the south, and most of the time the stick will be constantly fluctuating. So how does the developer deal with this?

    You can't just make the horizontal movement dependent on the X axis, because the player will think that she's pressing the stick all the way to the right, and she'll expect that the character will move at top speed, but in reality, she'll actually be pressing it slightly upwards, which will give the X axis a value of 967. Maybe the Y axis will at least match, and be -33, so at least the developer can just subtract abs(Y) from the X value. But maybe not even - because maybe this slight Y movement wouldn't be enough to break free of the driver-level deadzone, so you end up with X=967 and Y=0, with no way for the developer to know that the stick is actually being pushed to its extreme. Even if Y does indeed match and is -33, you now require the developer to jump through hoops and perform annoying equations just to get the movement feeling normal for the player. This all becomes extra complicated if you want tohave 4- or 8-directional movement, because now you have to factor in Y as sometimes actually being a part of X (and therefore contributing to horizontal movement) and at other times actually being used for vertical movement.

    no consistent deadzones
    Deadzones are essential, otherwise the joystick ends up moving the character even when you're not touching it. Again, let's say that the X axis goes from -1000 to 1000. Now, lets say that we want the stick to be in a deadzone for about the first third of its movement. So, for east movements, we just tell it to ignore any movements until X>300. But wait, what happens when we have a 4-directional game, and the player moves the joystick northeast?, or east-north-east? Most players will expect that pushing the joystick diagonally will still activate horizontal movement, and many game types essentially force the user into this kind of movement. But if the user pushes the stick northeast, X will no longer be 1000. It will be more like 500. But we set our deadzone to kick in until X>300. So now, we have a situation where the stick has a deadzone of about one-third when moving east, but a deadzone of about two-thirds when moving northeast, and a deadzone of about one-half when moving eastnortheast. The end result? The movement feels like crap, and the game feels glitchy and/or amateurish.

    There are solutions to all of these problems, but they are time-consuming and beyond most beginners, as many require trignonometric calculations, as well as a lot of trial and error and thinking about the problems. I know, because I had to fix exactly these sorts of issues when I was making VACCiNE, just to make analog movement work properly in my game. I certainly didn't think I'd have to fix it all over again in Fusion 3.



    Quote Originally Posted by Edel View Post
    I'm ready for F3.
    You might be, but the more important thing is that Clickteam ain't I don't have a crystal ball, but I've been around the block enough times to know with near-certainty that Fusion 3 is still a long way off. @defisym 's guess of 2022 or 2023 before we get a rigorously tested version of Fusion 3 is more likely to be an optimistic one than it is to be a pessimistic one. You really only have 3 choices: (1) use 2.5+ now, (2) use a different engine now, or (3) don't start any ambitious projects within the next few years.

  10. #40
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 DeveloperFusion 2.5+ DLCHTML5 Export ModuleiOS Export Module
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    After reading Vols post above. I feel like i just believed the hype that was in the clickteam blog post. Thank you for sharing your knowledge Volnaiskra. I'm not one of the more experienced users i am still on my long journey of game development. In short i am a donkey and GLFW now looks like a less attractive carrot than it did before. Choice (2) might be my new carrot. sad face.

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