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Thread: Game Types and How to do Them

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    Re: Game Types and How to do Them

    I totally agree with all the above, and I think that if there are going to be an MMF3, that all of this should be taken into account. Is it bad for MMF to go from an easy and simple game creation system to be an extremely powerful and (almost as easy to use) game creation system?

    Nova, you are afraid that such implementations will scare away users that all they want is to make a game i no time, but now MMF scares away advanced users that want to get the most out of MMF but simply cannot because of its clumsyness.

    Besides, there will always be a tool these people can use : MMF2

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    Forum Moderator Multimedia Fusion 2 DeveloperiOS Export Module

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    Re: Game Types and How to do Them

    To finish this point I will direct you to a quote from the MMF 2 sale page:


    Quote:
    Discover the secret tool used by so many multimedia pros, game creators, and people from all walks of life.
    With respect, Vortex, you are not in possession of all the facts Adult multimedia types don't hang out on the forums - they nip in, ask a quick question and then vanish again for six months.

    For example, an advertising agency approached me directly from the forums here to commission a screensaver project. :cool: They'd only ever made a couple of posts on the forum prior to that.

    Game creators - no question about that - the galleries speak for themselves.

    People from all walks of life - again, equally true - come to a convention and you'll see for yourself.

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    Re: Game Types and How to do Them

    Sarah, my point was that they do .

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah
    I don't think MMF is intended for those who are specializing in all things computer at university and beyond
    I was stating that MMF2's own sales page disputes your claim that MMF 2 is not intended for such audiences . Unless of course people specializing in all things computer at university is NOT a walk of life (I do admit that some of us don't have much of a life outside school, but still) ? .

    I agree with people here about having functions and OOP. Those would be very nice to have.

    Oh and Novabrain, I think we would be supprised by how much power the users can handle! While it is true that some of the userbase is rather new to game development, some have used MMF (and perhaps other programs) for quite a while. I am sure given the proper documentation new users will be able to take full advantage of additional power and control. I know this because some of the kids at the camp where I do tech support ask some amazingly complex questions while using MMF 2. One camper wanted to make a line rider game and actually got quite far with it! Another wanted to make Chess, but such a game is very hard to create in MMF 2.

    I didn't mean to steer this thread so far off course but I wanted to share my views . MMF 2 is a great program, so great that I want to use it in more of my work! No other tool that I own allows me to create things so rapidly. However the lack of power and control is a real killer sometimes :\.

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    Forum Moderator Multimedia Fusion 2 DeveloperiOS Export Module

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    Re: Game Types and How to do Them

    Vortex, you either have a product that has general appeal or one that has specialist appeal. You're looking for a specialist's tool, and MMF is never going to be that. Make things just that little bit more complex and you lose everybody except your most experienced users.

    I use TrueSpace for some of my artwork. With each new version they make sweeping changes to the interface. At the last version, I baulked. Enough is enough. I'm not prepared to wade through 100 hours of technical videos to be able to use a tool I only need for a few weeks a year. Judging by the number of special offers Caligari keep sending me - I am not alone :crazy:

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    Re: Game Types and How to do Them

    Vortex, you either have a product that has general appeal or one that has specialist appeal. You're looking for a specialist's tool, and MMF is never going to be that.
    With all respect I am looking for a tool that can make games. I am not looking for some special tool, I am looking for some added functionality so that I can use the tool more effectively. This isn't even functionality that would really get in users way if they did things the current way...

    I use TrueSpace for some of my artwork. With each new version they make sweeping changes to the interface. At the last version, I baulked. Enough is enough. I'm not prepared to wade through 100 hours of technical videos to be able to use a tool I only need for a few weeks a year. Judging by the number of special offers Caligari keep sending me - I am not alone
    Yes but the majority of people will still use TrueSpace. Such changes have to be made sometimes because usually software programs try to stay ahead or at the same level of the competition... If TrueSpace never changed then it would grow stale and old and then no one would use it because there would be much better options.


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    Re: Game Types and How to do Them

    You have to balance the rate of change with what the userbase can stand. It's different if you're bringing out a brand new, never seen before application - in this case, all your users will either be young or born risk takers.

    With a mature tool, you already have a substantial base of users that you want to take with you. Many people are pretty reluctant to have their cosy work space messed around with. They've invested thousands of hours into getting things just so, and resent a long period of relearning.

    So it's a tricky balance. People in this particular forum don't represent the majority of users - it's only the select few that are able and willing to make extensions, after all

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    Re: Game Types and How to do Them

    Good back and forth discussion there on user types and such

    After giving it some thought, I think both cases are presented well. We have the idea of simple/easy and non-threatening. Then, we have the rather advanced improvements and capabilities mentioned here.

    I don't think they are actually mutually exclusive. In other words, would it not be possible to have these features and promote them under the heading of advanced?

    I guess my question would be, are those who are suggesting the improvements thinking of an addition or a replacement for current ones or can they technically co-exist?

    From there I would go on to ask the details concerning the above. Just how much would MMF change, (superficially) in a way that might make it harder to use?

    Thanks.

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    Re: Game Types and How to do Them

    The good thing about extensions is .... that they're optional. If you don't want to worry your head about MOO or ODBC, they might as well not exist.

    So the LUA extensions are great - they parcel off scripting for those who want it, and don't strain the brain of those who don't.

    The more CT can follow a similar philosophy for other major changes, the easier it will be for both the new users and the golden oldies who are quite happy with things as they are

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    Re: Game Types and How to do Them

    They are not exclusive at all, if done correctly. Many programs hide more "advanced" features and allow the program to basically grow with the user. As the user becomes more advanced the program can become more advanced to meet their demands and needs.

    We don't want or need these additions to get in the way of the current way people use MMF 2, but we want them to be a compliment to and an addition for those who want or need more power.

    It should be possible to "dabble" in some of the advanced features to make projects easier to create. The thing about these mentioned additions is that they will make the tool EASIER to use as there will be less workarounds!

    Of course with good documentation and tutorials the users will be able to adopt the new concepts easily anyway . I have some video tutorials for Flash CS3 Professional (Work bought it for me) that I have worked through, and they have greatly increased my understanding of the program.

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    Re: Game Types and How to do Them

    Quote Originally Posted by vortex2
    It should be possible to "dabble" in some of the advanced features to make projects easier to create. The thing about these mentioned additions is that they will make the tool EASIER to use as there will be less workarounds!
    This is exactly my point. Why should any of the features make MMF2 harder to use?
    Currently achieving some simple things requires insanely complex thinking and difficult solutions. Why? Usually lack of transparency over what MMF actually does, lack of control over how MMF does it. Just because it requires an advanced user to come up with what could be improved it doesn't mean that beginners do not benefit from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah
    So the LUA extensions are great - they parcel off scripting for those who want it, and don't strain the brain of those who don't.
    I don't agree. Integrating LUA in MMF2 is quite a clumsy experience. If you have ever used LUA for .NET you know what I'm talking about (there LUA can access each and every function, method, object, etc. of the entire framework, without any extra code required).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah
    I don't think MMF is intended for those who are specializing in all things computer at university and beyond.
    MMF2 claims and tries to be a professional tool. But to be taken serious, it has to be reliable! You cannot plan or schedule work with a tool that will randomly throw rocks / bugs in your path that can take you half a year (or eternity) to fix.

    Functions or OOP may sound complicated, but if you have tried to achieve their effects with MMF's current options, then you know what is complicated. We need it easier. Not harder.

    MMF2 also requires a lot of work on parts of the debugger. While the debugger is kinda "cute" to see how some values are between frames, it is far from useable. Most extensions (all?) do not support it, it is really difficult to keep an overview (it shows all kind of stuff that clutters up the screen but is not nescessary, e.g. unused alterable values).
    I'm afraid we will never get a step through editor that can display what objects are selected by conditions, and display their values between actions - but without it, it won't be possible to efficiently debug applications or games.

    They've invested thousands of hours into getting things just so, and resent a long period of relearning.
    How about improvements that would allow the same things to be done within a couple of hours, instead of thousands?

    I like extensions, don't get me wrong. But some things have to be changed fundamentally to allow MMF to become more professional.

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