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Thread: [request] More upto date "useful" extensions

  1. #21
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    Re: [request] More upto date "useful" extensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifflas
    Why go for OS-specific controls that need to work differently for every OS and be ported for every new build type, when you can do advanced mutli-object widget support with custom conditions, actions, and expressions, so that we can just build our own toolbar or knob objects
    Because that would look atrocious in anything outside a game or level editor. Even if you don't, many people do make applications with MMF2, and applications need to look like the rest of the operating system.

  2. #22
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    Re: [request] More upto date "useful" extensions

    It's just that I honestly think MMF could be a lot better if it was intended as game middleware. I just fear that if it continues to try to be both, it will not be able to be an outstanding tool in neither of the areas. A major problem is the bloat pile of compiled C++ extensions that are usually buggy, unused, unsupported, forgotten or abandoned. Even MMF2 itself ships with a lot of stuff that doesn't work properly, and most interface extensions have some odd quirks. As long as MMF needs to have compiled functionality for features and formats that all kind of software may need, isn't this spiral going to continue forever? Either we're going to need support for tons of tons of features and formats, or MMF will only be useful for only a handful of types of software.

    Again, look at the most popular game middleware. They do not try to be for other software development, probably for a very good reason too. One may have the idea that "MMF2 is both for software and games" but that doesn't make it a good idea. Are you sure the drawbacks doesn't outweigh the benefits?

    I admit it would be cool to be proven wrong, and see an MMF3 that does both very nicely.

  3. #23
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    Re: [request] More upto date "useful" extensions

    If there are developers with time to work on these (and no other extension projects), I think this would be a good idea. In my opinion, more functionality could never be a bad thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifflas
    I vote -1 for all of them. We need a solid core and a good product.
    Needing a solid core and a good product is no reason for these extensions not to be created. These extensions would be done by contract or hobbyist developers, not Yves and Francois themselves. Am I misunderstanding your point? I'm not really sure if you mean that extensions created should be more focused on attaining a "solid core and a good product," or that MMF itself should actually be being improved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifflas
    I honestly think MMF could be a lot better if it was intended as game middleware.
    There are hundreds of MMF users who use MMF to create applications, and only applications. I assure you they would strongly disagree with this statement. You focus solely on game development with MMF, which is probably why you feel this way, but you must consider that many people use it to create applications and not just games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifflas
    A major problem is the bloat pile of compiled C++ extensions that are usually buggy, unused, unsupported, forgotten or abandoned.
    What's wrong with this? If you don't like or need an extension, don't use it in your project. But every extension that exists was created because people needed or wanted it. If you don't like having hundreds of extensions installed that don't do much, remove them from your extensions folder.

  4. #24
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    Re: [request] More upto date "useful" extensions

    Hmmm, I guess you're right, these are requests for third party extensions, not ones developed by Clickteam. I shouldn't be that critic then.

    I'm not really against add-on functionality, the thing that I'm just hoping for a shift in focus for MMF3 itself, and that the core features becomes much more powerful, cross-platform, object oriented - simply designed in such a way that every new add-on functionality doesn't have to be written in C++ (thus getting rid of the amount of stuff that needs to be ported for every build type. I mean, even I learnt some C++ to do an extension for features I need that - if supported - should have been evented functions and not C++ code).

    Of course, I realize that it makes sense that any third party extension developer can add stuff like this though. I guess I sometime take the things I worry about into topics where they do not belong.

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    Re: [request] More upto date "useful" extensions

    Nifflas I totally understand your point of view and agree on it. MMF3 needs rewriting from scratch, cause current version is the same app that KnP was but with bunch of new extensions and exporters and few additional windows.

    From one side it's good cause people who used KnP or TGF can come back without a problems, but for lots of other users it means that software haven't move at all and is for them the same product it was decade ago - and that's bad.

    I have to disagree with you in one please, thought. MMF is used for software development as programs and it should stay like that. Kliks were always about creating ALL multimedia - Games, Screensavers, Presentations and Applications and it's power of it.

    But I agree that lots of extensions is unused and unsupported, and yeah they exists but they are just not the thing we need them to be - example Raycaster Object.

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    Re: [request] More upto date "useful" extensions

    If there are developers with time to work on these (and no other extension projects), I think this would be a good idea. In my opinion, more functionality could never be a bad thing.
    If there's a database that can tell you which extensions that are glitched and how before you download them, then I guess more functionality can never be a bad thing. I remember it was a nightmare to learn which extensions I could trust though, and I can clearly see how new users would run into problems with this.

    I have to disagree with you in one please, thought. MMF is used for software development as programs and it should stay like that.
    It lacks a bit in the game and basic programming department though. It's odd to explain to other devs that MMF2 doesn't have functions and that I must repeat conditions instead of inserting sub-events, yet there's something as specific as a CT developed FTP object. I guess I'm fully OK with it being used for software, I just hope it's mainly the third party extension developers that continues to develop that side of MMF.

  7. #27
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    Re: [request] More upto date "useful" extensions

    I completely understand and respect that you want MMF's core features improved, and I agree with you on many of the ideas you've brought up. I personally develop both applications and games. In most cases, applications will rely heavily on 3rd party extensions (for data management and system interaction) while games will tend to stick to MMF's core functionality.

    Ideally, MMF could flawlessly combine its current event editor (perhaps simplified slightly with some of its power removed) and a more advanced script editor of sorts. For many reasons I imagine this would not be plausible though, both in the amount of time it would take to develop and actually achieving a flawless combination of these. But I wholeheartedly agree that some new features would be great, such as sub-events, more widespread use of expressions, etc.

    It lacks a bit in the game and basic programming department though. It's odd to explain to other devs that MMF2 doesn't have functions and that I must repeat conditions instead of inserting sub-events, yet there's something as specific as a CT developed FTP object. I guess I'm fully OK with it being used for software, I just hope it's mainly the third party extension developers that continues to develop that side of MMF.
    I'm sure it will be. But thinking about why MMF's core might not be a major focus right now, remember that game-making and application-making are equally important sides of MMF. Having said that, consider that sub-events would at best simplify the coding process, whereas I've made applications that were based entirely on the FTP object (I know you used these just as examples, but my point still applies in most scenarios). MMF is already capable of creating almost any 2D game, to the point where it comes down to the amount of time taken to create the game. 3rd party extensions, however, can be 100-percent necessary to the existence and success of an application.

    I completely agree with what you're saying though, and thinking about it, I sort of wonder why the core product hasn't been changed much over all the released MMF builds. Generally it's the 3rd party developers who focus on the application side of MMF, so I'm a bit unsure why many new features haven't been added.

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    Re: [request] More upto date "useful" extensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifflas
    If there are developers with time to work on these (and no other extension projects), I think this would be a good idea. In my opinion, more functionality could never be a bad thing.
    If there's a database that can tell you which extensions that are glitched and how before you download them, then I guess more functionality can never be a bad thing. I remember it was a nightmare to learn which extensions I could trust though, and I can clearly see how new users would run into problems with this.
    I'm currently working on such database, as expansion for my extension list. I planned to show some of the effects on CC11.

  9. #29
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    Re: [request] More upto date "useful" extensions

    Nifflas, I agree with a lot of your suggestions but disagree with removing extensions and basically have the same opinion as Jaffob about it.

    With things like FTP object while a game developer might find it fairly useless, to someone else making apps it could be the main reason they purchased the program though. It is as others have said MMF2 is great because you can use it for so many different things and i hope that continues with MMF3 also.

    For MMF3 i think certain objects could definitely be a lot more advanced and flexible though (like array objects etc) removing the need to have many alternative versions. I think the reason you have this though is many are 3rd party made so unfortunately they can get out of date and have no further updates.

    Hopefully MMF3 will have coding, low level events and more powerful widget options as standard. With that alternatives to objects could just be built around the main extension or a set of objects without ever having the need for coding.

  10. #30
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    Re: [request] More upto date "useful" extensions

    I think Nifflas is broadly right. Whilst extra extensions are a good thing, and it is better for them to be around then them not to be, what we have at the moment is a complete mess.

    Chris Branch's idea of having extensions which can be (somewhat) programmed in MMF is a great idea. I wrote before about why Ini++ really needs to be like this. It'd be better for everybody if that could be done. Java with Swing is also much easier, although less pretty than .net.

    We need more unity across extensions. We need to think about MMF being an easy tool again. I don't think there is a choice between games and applications, but it is worth noting that, at the moment, building UIs for applications in MMF is massively hard work. C# with the Visual Studios.net IDE is way, way easier.

    Of course, these extensions can still exist. But if they are made, they will contribute to the mess and nothing else. What is the point of a Bluetooth extensions, or WiFi, or USB. In addition to them not making massive technical sense, nobody will be able to use them properly. They will be mostly not be used. It is easy to come up with these ideas, but evidentially harder to think about if they are really useful. Basically, if you can make use of it, I'm sure you can sort out another way.

    CD/DVD writing extension... why? So you can make a CD/DVD burning application? But all the work has been done for you by the extension so what is the point? If you really need to do it, call another program which does it.

    The scanner extension is something which could plausibly be useful, but really it needs a more helpful image system in MMF. Hopefully MMF3 will have that. It is still a bit niche though.

    The GUI ideas are genuinely good though and probably would actually be worth somebodies time to program. I was planning to make a set of custom-theme GUI extensions, but I decided not to in the end.

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