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Thread: Roadblocks... Limitations with MMF

  1. #1
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    Roadblocks... Limitations with MMF

    Well I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, I feel like I've gotten really good at using MMF and I consider myself to be into pretty advanced territory. On the other hand, I'm terrible at coding in most other programming languages and I couldn't really make anything useful with them.

    So here's my roadblock:

    I need a feature that MMF doesn't have, but I can't make it. So I'm basically stuck. This, in my opinion, is the limitation with MMF. Once a person gets well acquainted with the program, they begin to discover things they just can't do, and it's really frustrating.

    I think the most frustrating part is that I've requested these features to be added in the past, but I'm basically at the mercy of Clickteam. So it's incredibly hard to create a business as an indie game developer using Clickteam products because of these roadblocks.

    I have a roadblock on a potentially great game that has caused me to stop working on it entirely, all because a feature is missing from MMF that I can't add myself. So is this a limitation with MMF or with me? I never planned on getting into serious coding, which is why I use MMF in the first place. So coding my own extension to solve the problem isn't really an option. I don't have the money to pay someone to make it right now, so basically I wait. That is, if I can even find someone to make it once I have the money to afford it.

    Without the feature, my game really can't be made. I wouldn't even really consider this a huge issue since you know... maybe I should just not make a game that requires that feature. But I see this problem cropping up again in the future. I can't possibly predict everything that MMF is and will be capable of... so the more advanced I get into MMF, the more I'm going to run into limitations like this, and the more I'm either going to have to cancel games completely, or dumb them down to a level I find unsatisfactory.

    I know it really isn't reasonable to demand that Clickteam adds every feature the users need, but some of the features I'm in need of seem like basic features of other game creation tools.

    I'm not really sure why I'm posting this, or what this thread will accomplish. I guess it's just partially me ranting, and partially me hoping I'm not alone, and partially me hoping that someone will notice and start working on the features I need.

    Until then, I guess I'll start working on another game project... and hopefully not run into another brick wall.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konidias View Post
    Well I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, I feel like I've gotten really good at using MMF and I consider myself to be into pretty advanced territory. On the other hand, I'm terrible at coding in most other programming languages and I couldn't really make anything useful with them.
    Programming is mostly the logic, strategy, and design patterns you use to write effective code. If you're effective in MMF2 you have the basic understanding of logic flow for programming, and all you need to learn is the syntax of a language and a few common design patterns.

    If you're finding you can't do something you want to do, ask for an extension to be made. Since you cannot code it yourself or offer money, just hope it will be made. Simple extensions are not too time consuming to make, generally.

    You're not at a roadblock, just an intersection with a stop sign.
    Working as fast as I can on Fusion 3

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    Well I understand that programming is mostly logic/strategy/etc. I can manage decently with javascript and simple programming, but the issue arises when I have to do complicated things... Looking at Phi's blog on extension development in C++ makes me stare off into space as saliva pools in my mouth: http://community.clickteam.com/entry.php?b=68

    I've just never figured out C++ after many attempts... I always get stuck and can't get myself out, and it's over silly stuff like just setting up the project or getting libraries or things to compile. It's a nightmare for me, which is why I'm using MMF in the first place. To get around having to do all that complicated behind the scenes stuff.

    I've asked for someone to make the extension... No luck. That's my problem. I'm relying totally on the hope that someone might come along and finally make what I need. So this is a terrible business strategy. I can't just wait around and cross my fingers when I need to add something to my game. What if it happens later on down the road when I have my online game up and running and I need to do something extremely important but I can't because MMF can't do it and I can't make the extension myself? Tough luck? I think it is my biggest concern with MMF game development. Without coding it all myself, I run into a brick wall and I cross my fingers and hope that someone can tear it down for me. Otherwise my game is dead.

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    May I ask what extension it is that you need?

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    There will always be a roadblock, even if you are John Carmack. You could master C++ or whatever and you would still find roadblocks. So don't let them stop you, there are usually several ways to get things done, so don't focus on the only one that's not working, try to find another one.

    If you told us what the problem is we could offer solutions. Chances are there's other way to do what you are not being able to do. Be patient and try to look at the problem from a different perspective.

  6. #6
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    Well I've already brought up my problem on the forums to no avail.

    I need an object that can load in a 3D mesh and animate it, with similar properties to an active object.

    Doesn't need to load in bones/rigs/controls. Doesn't need dynamic lighting or anything.

    Needs to have the background be transparent and I need to be able to place the object above and below other objects properly.

    Must be HWA optimized.

    There's the 3D mesh object which is similar to what I need, but it's not HWA optimized and there doesn't seem to be any chance that it will be.

    The other 3D extensions involve having a "camera" and need to load all the objects into a special window, but I need to have each mesh be it's own object so I can layer them individually... which I can't do if they all exist in one object.

    I know it is possible to do it, since the 3D mesh object exists... but it is just too slow for my purposes as I need to load roughly 12-20 characters on screen and without optimization it brings the game to a crawl.

    edit: and if I could barely make an extension that displays a button on the screen, there really isn't any chance I'll be scripting a custom 3D mesh loader any time soon. I mean maybe with a year of learning and trial and error... but that isn't exactly the kind of time I have available.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by oruga View Post
    There will always be a roadblock, even if you are John Carmack. You could master C++ or whatever and you would still find roadblocks. So don't let them stop you, there are usually several ways to get things done, so don't focus on the only one that's not working, try to find another one.
    The difference is that John Carmack might be trying to create some new technology that doesn't exist... while I'm just trying to do something as basic as loading a 3D mesh into the game without it bringing the framerate to a crawl.

    I could use Unity which does it easily, but then I really don't want the entire game to be in 3D, and I've made so much progress with the game inside MMF. I'd much rather use MMF over another tool but it's just the limitations that bug me.

    Stuff like simply being able to load graphics externally at runtime is such a process with MMF when it really should be a common feature. The current system for importing graphics is cumbersome at best.

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    So, you want your 2D creation suite to be more like a 3D creation suite so you don't need to learn the 3D creation suite? You've not only answered your own questions by saying everything you don't want to do or learn, but you've confirmed your initial concern of this thread being pointless, and more likely, just a rant.

    Don't hold your breath on it. It's not a 'basic' thing to do like you think it is. And if it was, my suggestion would be that you do it. I'm not trying to be rude, but this is how I feel.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by liquixcat View Post
    So, you want your 2D creation suite to be more like a 3D creation suite so you don't need to learn the 3D creation suite? You've not only answered your own questions by saying everything you don't want to do or learn, but you've confirmed your initial concern of this thread being pointless, and more likely, just a rant.

    Don't hold your breath on it. It's not a 'basic' thing to do like you think it is. And if it was, my suggestion would be that you do it. I'm not trying to be rude, but this is how I feel.
    No, I don't want it to be more like a 3D creation suite. I want it to be able to load 3D meshes... That's all. I even specified that it doesn't need a 3D camera, or importing bone rigs or controls... The game is 2D but I want 3D meshes in it. So I either learn 3D programming and learn how to do everything all over again in Unity, or MMF gets the option to load 3D meshes and I can continue using this great software that I have knowledge and experience with.

    I mean basic as in it's something that most game development software has as a basic feature. Not that it is basic or easy to add it to MMF. Don't mistake me as someone who doesn't want to put in the effort. Trust me, I spent a lot of time and effort attempting many solutions, attempting to learn extension creating, I've tried learning C++ for years. But some things just aren't meant to be. Some people will never be professional basketball players or concert pianists no matter how hard they practice. C++ programming is just not something I have skill in. I'm already doing every single other aspect of my game on my own... I don't think it's much to ask that I get some help somewhere along the way.

    But you're right about me saying it's a rant... because it can be taken that way, obviously. Yes I'm ranting... if you don't like it, then you really don't need to respond to my thread, but if you really must tell me how I should learn to do everything myself, and how I'm just complaining that MMF isn't a 3D game tool, then by all means, continue.

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    How convincing is this 3d mesh supposed to be? If all the points and textures are around a central vertex and not look like its dx11, there are ways you could code it yourself using just active objects with rotations and scaling. The more limited your display is to be, the simpler the coding. People have made pseudo-3D effects in clickteam products as far back as KNP- I'd know, Ive done it myself. I even made a fully operational wolfenstein engine in TGF for purely academic purposes.


    But there has to be the reality at the end of the say that mmf2 is a 2d application IDE. Any forays into 3d, no matter how limited, are going to be an uphill battle. Given that, while developers have created a ton of extensions for mmf2, 3d meshes are a very niche usage and lots of work to generify, something nobody is going to create if it isnt for their own usage. Like said above, no matter *what* language or libraries you use for a project, you *will* run into roadblocks. I have, hundreds of times in every language, and Ive never been without a workaround.

    My suggestion is, take a good think about your feature. Is it core to gameplay? If its so vital in your specifications, starr looking at ways you could create a similar simpler-yet-convincing effect. Without knowing your details, I cant tell you. But lets say you wanted a spiffy 3d menu. Well look at the metroid prime games, I think #3. You could create such a menu easily by just using lines and circular AOs that orbit around a point. The math for such 3d looking effects is simple, cos*sin and sin*sin for x/y and cos for scale. Now if your "3d meshes" were limited to points at an offset from the origin, theres no reason you couldnt create a wireframe and even wrap textures around it, loaded from CSV files

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