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Thread: Clickteam please improve PERFORMANCE of MMF2 games ASAP

  1. #31
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    King_Cool's Avatar
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    How bout we see if this is a problem we can solve

    Blue66, if you can try to answer these questions im sure it will make it so much easier for people to help you solve or identify your problem

    GENERAL
    Your making a Platformer Game correct?
    What is the target platform for the game?
    Is the whole game in 1 Frame, or is the game divided amonst multiple Frames/ Levels?
    Whats the size of the visible game Frame ( 640x480 etc )?

    DESIGN
    In general, are your game Objects composed of 1 or more Active Objects ( example: seperate Actives for arms, legs etc )?
    Does the games scroll?
    Is there potentially alot of Collisions occuring at the same time, aprox how many?
    Are you changing the Scaling or Angle of Objects alot?

    EVENT EDITOR
    Aprox how many Events is there in the Game?
    Are you deactivating Groups Of Events when they are not needed?
    To what extent are you using Fast Loops/ For Each Loops?

    GRAPHICS
    What are the generall dimencions of your game Objects?
    Are there any game Objects that are particularily large?
    Is the detail level of your Objects/ Background Textures high?
    Are you using large and detailed Backdrop Objects?
    Are you using any special effects:
    ink effects?
    alpha channels?
    shaders?
    graphical extencions?

  2. #32
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    I find it much easier if someone can have a look at the mfa. Again, my new game world has a size of 24576x19968 pixels and 100374 objects exists within it - using one single MMF2 frame. It works because the level format is external and I dynamically load and unload what the game needs for the moment. My old game Knytt doesn't have an external level format, is 32400x1920 pixels, the frame contains 52100 objects, 4741 of them being non-backdrops, and I have zero performance problems. Knytt is a rather simple game, but trust me, my new game pushes every aspect of MMF2. So, when you mention you have problems with around 800 objects, yet you do simpler AI's than the one in Doom, it does sound likely that there's something quite unoptimized about your programming even though we haven't seen your mfa.

    Solution? Post the .mfa! Maybe in private to a few skilled users who you trust to not distribute it. If you haven't optimized things nicely, they'll know exactly what's wrong and can help. If you actually did optimize it, they can see where the bottleneck in MMF2 is. It's more useful for CT if you point at specific things, like "object iteration is too slow for reason X and Y, and I can't work around it for reason Z, maybe you should consider implementing the features V and W", than to just say "MMF2 is too slow, make MMF2 faster". The former can result in CT actually making useful additions or extension developers doing stuff like the ForEach object which helps performance massively. The latter isn't helpful - something you need to be if you expect help back.

  3. #33
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    A bad craftsman always blames his tools.

    I can't think of the last time this quote has been so relevant. "Why can't I have my cake and eat it too?? It's the cake's fault!!" If you want massive optimal unlimited performance you need to code your software with proper memory allocation, you can't use a code-free drag & drop deal without doing any optimisation. And if you must, you can't go calling yourself a developer.

  4. #34
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    My guess is that Crysis2 would use something like OpenGL or DirectX so try using HWA or different runtime options and things will go faster. Even if you are coding with C++ etc you can have slowness with games just the same if you don't optimize so rather than blame the tool try and learn how to use it better instead.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by DistantJ View Post
    A bad craftsman always blames his tools.

    I can't think of the last time this quote has been so relevant. "Why can't I have my cake and eat it too?? It's the cake's fault!!" If you want massive optimal unlimited performance you need to code your software with proper memory allocation, you can't use a code-free drag & drop deal without doing any optimisation. And if you must, you can't go calling yourself a developer.
    Just shut up. You act like a wild attack dog, who's barking at everybody who dares talking to your master in a way you don't understand. Do you need a hug or something?

    SO, I've given the MFA to Simon from Clickteam and he found two major bottle necks that lowered the performance. One of them was me not deactivating every group of things that aren't needed if not on screen, which is a shame, because it doesn't give me the creative freedom that I would like. And one of which was caused by Clickteam and I'm pretty sure only a few people here know about this, because even Simon seemed surprised and mentioned it could be a bug in MMF2. Turns out if you have an event that turns off a lot of groups, you should NOT use the condition "repeat only once when event loops" but instead use a negated version of "if group X is enabled", which increases performance a lot.

    But besides that, my other point still stands. How comes Clickteam and ALL people here in the thread ignore my complaint about MMF2 apparently not using hyper-thread technology? Because if they don't use it, this is a MAJOR DEAL and you guys simply ignore it and point your fingers at me? Dual core CPUs are not a new thing and it's a modern technology STANDARD that even goes for CELL PHONES! Don't you think THIS is the real bottle neck here? And you guys just let this one slide and want to make me look like a bad programmer who doesn't optimize his stuff?! What's up with that? Hypocritical much?

    Edit: One more thing I want to make clear. Some people might have the impression that I'm trying to bash Clickteam. That is NOT the case! I've had several problems and came to this board many times and Clickteam was always very helpful and gave me very good advice and they took their time to look over my problems and help me as best as they could. I appreciate that a lot and in my book Clickteam have some of the best support I've seen from a company. So again, I'm NOT trying to make Clickteam look bad.

    Many people here got into a lot of trouble with their projects because of performance break-downs and they had to go through some very complicated work-arounds that took away great amounts of time from their projects. And THIS is the reason why I'm upset. If there are possibilities for Clickteam to increase performance of the MMF2 games in general, I say this should have a very high priority to give us all more horse-power for awesome games.

  6. #36
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    This is an interesting thread, and although I love clickteam, the software, and all the support they give. I do agree with Blue here. The amount of work arounds that we have done to Paint My World to get performance up to standard is.. just insane. I admit a lot of it, is making sure the game runs on other platforms, flash, iOS etc. But the game could easily have problems running in a Windows environment if we are not constantly careful about how we code the game. Nifflas pointed out that he has to be clever in how he creates his games due to similar reasons. It does concern me the more we add to Paint My World the more problems we are going to encounter in the future. For example due to us putting the game on other platforms, levels exist within MMF itself, this gives us a fairly large number of frames, where as we also have a level editor that will for the main Windows / PC version will allow us to have all the levels external to the application. This has been planned from the start, due to previous knowledge of how performance can be a very important factor when creating a game within MMF. There is also no doubt the creation of the game would be faster, if we didn't have to worry 'as much' about performance as we do at the moment.

    On the other hand, the software saves us a lot of time compared to if we used other creation tools to create the game, and is perfect for our current needs. Is the time saved there, is worth the time in all the performance tweaks and workarounds that are required? Maybe, possibly, other engines are getting more and more tools which speed up the process of game design, but a lot aren't even crafted to work within a 2D environment like MMF is anyway.

    As I said, intersting thread .

  7. #37
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    I feel like some of you guys need to just go and play LittleBigPlanet :P

  8. #38
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    Used to have problems using the old MMF. But nothing with mmf2 yet.. mind back when i was working in mmf my game had a crazy amount on onscreen objects at one time.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue66 View Post
    But besides that, my other point still stands. How comes Clickteam and ALL people here in the thread ignore my complaint about MMF2 apparently not using hyper-thread technology? Because if they don't use it, this is a MAJOR DEAL and you guys simply ignore it and point your fingers at me? Dual core CPUs are not a new thing and it's a modern technology STANDARD that even goes for CELL PHONES! Don't you think THIS is the real bottle neck here? And you guys just let this one slide and want to make me look like a bad programmer who doesn't optimize his stuff?! What's up with that? Hypocritical much.
    Hyperthreading is a technology patented and owned by Intel. There's not much they can do about it.

  10. #40
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    Hyper-threading? Please make sure to be knowledgeable about a topic before discussing it. Hyper-threading is Intel's technology of increasing the performance of CPUs by splitting up a single CPU core into two virtual ones. This doesn't have anything to do with MMF. Threading itself, which allows for parallel processing, has been around for ages... the problem here is the PROGRAMMING. Multi-threading is complicated, especially in a case like MMF. Do you realize that to actually utilize multiple CPU cores at once, your program has to be structured in a way that it does? How is MMF supposed to run your game on two cores if your code was written for a single core and is SUPPOSED to be processed in a completely linear fashion? This is all very complicated and MMF was released in 2006, where parallel processing wasn't that big yet. For MMF3, we might see some concepts of this implemented but you will still have to make sure to code in a way that allows MMF to utilize the power of multiple CPUs. MMF isn't a tool that poops out amazing games with a single mouse-click. It's usually easier than real languages like C++ but it's still hard work. I hope I could shed some light on this... multi-threading is completely unnecessary in most program structures. It comes in handy when you're working with huge chunks of data or want to generate something in the background. MMF's performance issues have nothing to do with that.

    By the way, we don't like users telling other users to shut up, thanks I can see how DistantJ's post might have been a little provoking, but still.

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