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Thread: MMF2 Build 256.34

  1. #51
    Clickteam Clickteam

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    In the build 256 the .dat files are replaced by .zip files, but you can still use .dat files if you want. If you've both kcedit.zip and kcedit.dat, probably MMF2 will take kcedit.zip. Just delete kcedit.zip if you want to use the .dat file.

  2. #52
    Clicker Multimedia Fusion 2 Developer
    Blue66's Avatar
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    There seems to be something strange going on since the latest version (I'm quite sure this didn't happen in previous versions). It makes destroyed objects count within the same frame, even though they should be... well, destroyed before the event fires.

    Here is how to reproduce this very quick:

    -make a new mfa
    -add 1 Active
    -make event "at START OF FRAME" then "destroy Active"
    -make event "if number of objects ACTIVE > 0" then "set alterable value of Active=1"
    -make event "Alterable value of ACTIVE = 1" then "play sound <whatever>"

    Now in my book, the "at start of frame" event should fire before the other ones, so all ACTIVES should be destroyed. The second event should count 0, so it should not change the alterable value. But it does! And so the sound gets played, even though the Active should have been destroyed at the start of the frame and there should be no alterable values to change. This does not seem intentional to me.

    Hope my explanation makes sense =)

  3. #53
    Clicker Multimedia Fusion 2 Developer
    Blue66's Avatar
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    Another bug to report (this is a remaining bug that still exists from previous versions):

    If you have a lot of objects created (one per frame, no fast loop) and it changes animation sequence of them all when created, sometimes it happens that the animations get taken from other objects! This happens randomly but so frequent, that I can provide you lots of screenshots if necessary. The objects should only use animations that are inside the same object and not take animations from other objects. Maybe this is the reason why my application still crashes, even with the latest version (had a crash only 5 minutes ago).

  4. #54
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 DeveloperAndroid Export ModuleiOS Export Module
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    I can validate that Blue66 sound issue is happening for me too, when i follow his directions:
    -make a new mfa
    -add 1 Active
    -make event "at START OF FRAME" then "destroy Active"
    -make event "if number of objects ACTIVE > 0" then "set alterable value of Active=1"
    -make event "Alterable value of ACTIVE = 1" then "play sound <whatever>"

    what's weird, is if i add a counter and make event "ALWAYS: Set counter to Number of Actives" the counter shows 0

  5. #55
    Clickteam Clickteam
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    Is that Start of Frame destroy issue really new? It seems to me that how MMF behaves with these events is normal. MMF actually doesn't destroy the objects immediately, but only at the end of the loop after having performed the list of events. The easiest way to workaround this is to uncheck the "Create at start" property of the Active object.

    For your information this is how the MMF engine is functioning, and in which order it deals with the various events:
    Every 1/50 of second, the Fusion's engine does the following :

    1. Checks the player inputs
    2. Animates the objects one by one
    3. Checks the timer events
    4. Performs the other events
    5. Destroys the marked objects

    6. Displays the screen, updates the sound buffers
    7. Handles Windows messages, and regulates loop speed
    8. Checks for end of loop, and jumps to 1 if frame not finished.
    You can read more about it in the Clickteam tutorials > Getting the most of... > The Multimedia Fusion runtime engine

  6. #56
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 DeveloperFusion 2.5 DeveloperAndroid Export ModuleiOS Export ModuleXNA Export Module
    DistantJ's Avatar
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    Just to say, destroying an object at the start of the frame shouldn't really be done unless what you desire can't be achieved by unchecking "Create at Start" (such as selective deletion from picking at random etc.)

  7. #57
    Clicker Multimedia Fusion 2 Developer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olivier View Post
    Is that Start of Frame destroy issue really new? It seems to me that how MMF behaves with these events is normal. MMF actually doesn't destroy the objects immediately, but only at the end of the loop after having performed the list of events. The easiest way to workaround this is to uncheck the "Create at start" property of the Active object.

    For your information this is how the MMF engine is functioning, and in which order it deals with the various events:


    You can read more about it in the Clickteam tutorials > Getting the most of... > The Multimedia Fusion runtime engine
    This has always worked for me and it still does with Actives that were created before the latest version. All new Actives have this problem. And also shouldn't "at START OF FRAME" be executed at the very beginning? Before all other events? So how should any other event be able to do anything with the Active if it should be destroyed at the very beginning of the frame.

    @rubes: I think you understood the issue the wrong way. There is no issue with sound. You can make that event at the end do whatever you want, it is just to check for the Active. The point is that in my first event, "AT START OF FRAME" the active should be destroyed. So the next events should not be able to do anything with the Active. It should be not possible. But instead, the Active still is treated as it was still there and not destroyed in the first event! Because in the next event, it counts the Active as it would be still there. It shouldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by DistantJ View Post
    destroying an object at the start of the frame shouldn't really be done
    Interesting. Says who? I understand that you're trying to help and point out work-arounds, but this does not help the problem of MMF2 not doing what it is supposed to do. When I see MMF2 do stuff that does not seem intentional, I think it's a good thing to point it out to the developers, so they can take a look and see if something is wrong. Maybe this is an issue that leads to other things not working properly as well! I have no idea how MMF2 is programmed, so I can't say if this is a minor misbehaviour that can be ignored, or something serious that can lead to the destruction of all mankind.

  8. #58
    Clicker Fusion 2.5 DeveloperAndroid Export ModuleiOS Export Module
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    Great link Oliver. I think I read that very early on, but now that I've been clicking, it is a lot more clear

  9. #59
    Clicker Multimedia Fusion 2 DeveloperiOS Export Module
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    Rubes's "play sound" action was a simple Lorem Ipsum, it never implied sound was related. He's demonstrating exactly what you then try to explain to him.

    Deleting an object isn't taken in effect immediately. Instead, it becomes flagged for removal but isn't properly destroyed before the end of that frame. And no, this is not a new problem; I've been aware of this since I developed Knytt Stories five years ago. It's why I back then requested the "Create at Start" checkbox, a feature that was quickly implemented.

    Also, because of backwards compatibility, this can impossibly be fixed right now without breaking a whole lot of projects. This is a fix for MMF3. In fact, there are several aspects of MMF2 that waits until the end of the event loop (something related to layers and ordering, the mask of the second object in an overlap check, and removal of background objects), and because of this I've had to split up the room generating process of Knytt Underground into 7 frames.

    When I see MMF2 do stuff that does not seem intentional, I think it's a good thing to point it out to the developers, so they can take a look and see if something is wrong.
    The CT staff already knows, and so does a lot of users here. This is specifically programmed to work like this, probably for some technical reasons. I agree, this needs to be changed with MMF3 because it is not how a user would expect it to work, but it's not a bug.

    If you have a lot of objects created (one per frame, no fast loop) and it changes animation sequence of them all when created, sometimes it happens that the animations get taken from other objects! This happens randomly but so frequent, that I can provide you lots of screenshots if necessary.
    I do terribly complex stuff in MMF2 and this has never happened. You need to post an .mfa that demonstrates the problem, we won't be able to reproduce it from screenshots.

  10. #60
    Clicker Multimedia Fusion 2 Developer
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    Thx Nifflas for your response.

    I can't understand how this is not a new problem, because I never touched the "create at start" box and always used the destroy object at start of frame and it has never failed me up until now. It also does not seem logical or practical in any way to just "mark" an object to be destroyed since I tell the program to DESTROY and not DESTROY LATER. The deeper I go into the "how MMF2 works", the more I get the impression it's a complete mess.

    To reproduce my animation glitch, the devs just have to open my MFA (which I sent to several devs by now) and run FRAPS or some other program that records every frame (since this glitch sometimes only shows up for one frame). Now run around in the game, record a video with fraps and kill enemies for 1-2 minutes and you should see the first glitch, where a spawned active shows as some other random animation frame from a completely different active from the game when killing an enemy and "gib" actives get spawned. Sometimes it uses an animation from an active used for the HUD etc so definitely an animation that is not even within the active that is spawned. To verify this, look at the video you recorded and see exactly that the spawned active uses an animation that is not from the same spawned active, so this is 100% a glitch of MMF2 since it's not possible or intentional to make actives spawn with animations from other actives. The developers should be well aware that animations are not working properly, since they already implemented a work-around for a glitch they can't address which causes animation numbers in the negative (I received an email about this). Looks to me this work-around didn't fix the issue, since my game is still crashing and animations are still not showing up correctly from time to time.

    Clickteam please fix animations properly, animations should never be taken from other actives and only use animations within the same active. Maybe it has to do with the animation names? Uppercase and lowercase? Or when copy&pasting events that have animations in them, it does not get copied properly? I'm just trying to help give some ideas what might cause this problem. Maybe something wrong with global events, since I'm heavily using global events. And please nobody tell me that I "shouldn't use" global events, thank you.

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