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Thread: About MMF 2.5 :)

  1. #101
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    Lightbulb

    They really need to add all the effects and animations functions from modern 2D games...
    Things like bend the sprites like you want... Native illumination simulation on 2D... Fluid simulation (water, smoke, fire...), a way to use tiles, better way to make scenarios, time control of the game (only selected objects, groups or layers), bone animation, easier way to use shaders (and better shaders of course), maybe even an facial animation tool, etc
    Another great addition would be a native and easier way to make isometric games... Like the Super Mario RPG from SNES, one of the best isometric RPG of all the time.
    Please get inspired as much as you guys can on things from games like Limbo, Dust: An Elysian Tail and Rayman (Origins and Legends)... These are the best 2D modern games out yet.

    Here some examples from these games:

    IMAGES:

    -RAYMAN LEGENDS

    http://cdn-static.gamekult.com/gamek...50142430_2.jpg
    http://nowgamer.net-genie.co.uk/site...0/0/362580.gif
    http://www.girlsofwar.com.br/wp-cont...nds-header.jpg
    http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/wp-co...n-Legends2.jpg
    http://media.officialplaystationmaga...screenshot.jpg
    http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/wp-co...-Legends-5.jpg
    http://imguol.com/c/entretenimento/2..._1920x1080.jpg
    http://supernovo.net/wp-content/uplo...as-versoes.jpg
    http://big-games.info/s/f/r/rayman_legends_7.jpg
    http://analogaddiction.files.wordpre...lums-pic-4.jpg
    http://jogos.zwame.pt/wp-content/upl...reenshot-2.jpg
    http://images.playfrance.com/5/22257/zoom/8839.jpg

    -Dust: The Elysian Tale

    http://www.rpgfan.com/pics/Dust_An_E..._PC/ss-002.jpg
    http://i5.minus.com/is0smgXHRxB30.jpg
    http://www.rpgfan.com/pics/Dust_An_E..._PC/ss-005.jpg
    http://thenerdmagazine.com/wp-conten...ssets/07-0.jpg
    http://operationrainfall.com/wp-cont...snow-fight.jpg
    http://www.gamepcrip.com/wp-content/...-Tail-pc-1.jpg
    http://www.pxlbbq.com/wp-content/upl...75788-017.jpeg
    http://www.oxmonline.com/files/image..._screen_02.jpg


    Some video examples:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afqO1qGr2XM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmSAQwbbig8
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MknsoFekRo

    Look how the title moves and bend...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...3Q_QEJPNY#t=15

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuuriokun View Post
    They really need to add all the effects and animations functions from modern 2D games...
    Things like bend the sprites like you want... Native illumination simulation on 2D... Fluid simulation (water, smoke, fire...), a way to use tiles, better way to make scenarios, time control of the game (only selected objects, groups or layers), bone animation, easier way to use shaders (and better shaders of course), maybe even an facial animation tool, etc
    Another great addition would be a native and easier way to make isometric games... Like the Super Mario RPG from SNES, one of the best isometric RPG of all the time.
    Please get inspired as much as you guys can on things from games like Limbo, Dust: An Elysian Tail and Rayman (Origins and Legends)... These are the best 2D modern games out yet.

    Here some examples from these games:

    IMAGES:

    -RAYMAN LEGENDS

    http://cdn-static.gamekult.com/gamek...50142430_2.jpg
    http://nowgamer.net-genie.co.uk/site...0/0/362580.gif
    http://www.girlsofwar.com.br/wp-cont...nds-header.jpg
    http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/wp-co...n-Legends2.jpg
    http://media.officialplaystationmaga...screenshot.jpg
    http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/wp-co...-Legends-5.jpg
    http://imguol.com/c/entretenimento/2..._1920x1080.jpg
    http://supernovo.net/wp-content/uplo...as-versoes.jpg
    http://big-games.info/s/f/r/rayman_legends_7.jpg
    http://analogaddiction.files.wordpre...lums-pic-4.jpg
    http://jogos.zwame.pt/wp-content/upl...reenshot-2.jpg
    http://images.playfrance.com/5/22257/zoom/8839.jpg

    -Dust: The Elysian Tale

    http://www.rpgfan.com/pics/Dust_An_E..._PC/ss-002.jpg
    http://i5.minus.com/is0smgXHRxB30.jpg
    http://www.rpgfan.com/pics/Dust_An_E..._PC/ss-005.jpg
    http://thenerdmagazine.com/wp-conten...ssets/07-0.jpg
    http://operationrainfall.com/wp-cont...snow-fight.jpg
    http://www.gamepcrip.com/wp-content/...-Tail-pc-1.jpg
    http://www.pxlbbq.com/wp-content/upl...75788-017.jpeg
    http://www.oxmonline.com/files/image..._screen_02.jpg


    Some video examples:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afqO1qGr2XM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmSAQwbbig8
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MknsoFekRo

    Look how the title moves and bend...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...3Q_QEJPNY#t=15
    Bending sprites is possible with pixel shaders, and would be slow to do at runtime otherwise. Same with illumination (there is already such a shader). Also, for tiles, there is the tile map object. Scenarios? That's too vague, since how they would/what the term means work varies heavily from game to game. As for an easier way to use shaders, they're already basically as easy as they get, and, as for better shaders, that requires better shader developers. MMF2 isn't for making graphics, so there goes facial animation.

    That leaves us with fluid simulation (which mentioned some things other than fluids (fire and smoke, which can be done with the flame object (which can also do lots of other effects, though it is in a desperate need of an HWA port))) and bone animation (which I agree would be nice).

  3. #103
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    happygreenfrog, you didn't get the point... Fusion 3 is being developed from the scratch, if some of these 'features' can't be done in MMF 2.5, maybe Fusion 3 will support without any trouble, and run so much smoother, like the games that I said.
    And I mean bending sprites using bone animation, without need more than one sprite / active. Example: you have only the foot sprite, and you can bend the foot when it stomps the ground. Get it?

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuuriokun View Post
    happygreenfrog, you didn't get the point... Fusion 3 is being developed from the scratch, if some of these 'features' can't be done in MMF 2.5, maybe Fusion 3 will support without any trouble, and run so much smoother, like the games that I said.
    And I mean bending sprites using bone animation, without need more than one sprite / active. Example: you have only the foot sprite, and you can bend the foot when it stomps the ground. Get it?
    Ah, if it supported bone animation, then it probably wouldn't be too much of a problem to implement such a feature, in that case.

  5. #105
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    Support to OpenGL ES 3.0 for mobile would be awesome too! (Android 4.3 has OpenGL ES 3.0)

  6. #106
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    Im aware of the games like the new Rayman games but not familiar with them so take this with a grain of salt but some of the effects you are talking about sound more like vector &/or 3d sprite(planes) animations.

    Games like Plants vs Zombies use textured vectors to bend & twist what look like raster based sprites.

    Just watched the videos, Rayman is definitely a 3d engine.
    The anime facial pose/phenome tool is a vector based program.
    MMF is a pure raster based engine.

  7. #107
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    arsdigita, you're wrong. It's not vector or 3D, you can even rip the parts of the sprites with tools like Texmod.
    Rayman uses 2D sprites with bone animation, but in Rayman Legends SOME of the bosses are 3D simulating the 2D art style of the game.
    Rayman Legends art is just Rayman Origins sprites with another painting style.
    Dust uses 2D sprites too, but the animations are pre-made (Raster graphics), all the frames of the animations are in the game data. Example ripped from the game:
    http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps47a1a8ee.png

    Plants vs Zombies have vector and raster, and is made in Flash.
    The anime facial pose/phenome tool are vector for sure, and I KNOW, but this can be done distorting and bending raster graphics too, not really need vector, you really never saw what the bone animation is capable?

    Look at this screenshot from an earlier leaked trailer of Rayman Legends, looks like someone forgot to "make up" one sprite, haha.
    http://whatculture.com/wp-content/up...-lEGENDS-4.jpg

    So it's not 3D, only bosses or some enemies that make moviments following the camera in a simulated pseudo-3D scene.

    Here's some sprites from Rayman Origins:
    http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps029e34a9.png

    In this shot for example, the only 3D thing is the boss, but it's textured to look like the rest of the game:
    https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-i.../130613-11.jpg

    In ths shot you can see that only the dragons are 3D, look how sharper the dragons are, they don't even have a lot of polygons:
    http://www.gamershell.com/static/scr...30384_full.jpg

    So in resume, the 2D part (most of the game) is totally possible. Facial expressions? Possible too, bending raster images with bone animation.

  8. #108
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    Will MMF2.5 still run in DX9 HWA?
    And if so, is it possible we will ever see a fix to the alpha blending problem, where it blends improperly when pixel shaders are applied?

  9. #109
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    I do not think I am wrong regarding Raymans underlying tech, it is a 3d engine PRESENTED as a 2d game.

    I would love to see the code of a game engine that uses 3d elements and NOT map the hand drawn raster graphics to a quad for positioning and manipulation.
    My point was that you are making some very specific requests for a tool that DOES NOT support vectors in either 2d or 3d. (And I believe Clickteam has stated vectors are not part of MMF's future).

    Bones could be done in MMF, but this would not be an easy task considering the lack of vector support and I highly doubt the average MMF user has a handle on quaternion math.
    And bones do not inherently bend & morph raster graphics, they supply position & rotation information & thats it.

    There is also a huge difference between what can be done and what can be done efficiently (Mode7 object comes to mind).

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by arsdigita View Post
    I do not think I am wrong regarding Raymans underlying tech, it is a 3d engine PRESENTED as a 2d game.

    I would love to see the code of a game engine that uses 3d elements and NOT map the hand drawn raster graphics to a quad for positioning and manipulation.
    My point was that you are making some very specific requests for a tool that DOES NOT support vectors in either 2d or 3d. (And I believe Clickteam has stated vectors are not part of MMF's future).

    Bones could be done in MMF, but this would not be an easy task considering the lack of vector support and I highly doubt the average MMF user has a handle on quaternion math.
    And bones do not inherently bend & morph raster graphics, they supply position & rotation information & thats it.

    There is also a huge difference between what can be done and what can be done efficiently (Mode7 object comes to mind).
    If the Mode 7 object was re-coded to work for HWA, it probably would run a lot faster.

    However, those are some pretty good points, some of which I didn't know (mainly the fact that bone animation was usually a vector graphic thing).

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