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Thread: Spryke - hardcore new-school platformer

  1. #111
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    zip2kx's Avatar
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    I might be the minority but I like A from take 2. It has enough depth but still compact enough to not distract the eye from various objects and events in the game.

  2. #112
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    I think C looks best in take 2.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julian82 View Post
    ...sounds like a lot of work
    Hah. What's new? I think just about every decision I've ever made with Spryke has involved doing it the insane, time-consuming way. I actually think my willingness to do that is kind of my secret weapon

    I love the way Rayman uses so many layers to add continuity and depth. I mean, look at this - it's just beautiful:



    Doing the same thing with Spryke is something that's been on my to do list for a while. Though I don't think you can pull it off in all, or even most situations. I think the parallaxing would get too problematic if you took this approach anywhere other than at the extremes (eg. the bottom corner) of a level.

    Another thing Rayman does is use a kind of 'double-isometric' angle for the platforms, where you can see the left and right planes of every platform simultanously. This simplifies some things (eg. you don't need to deal with the whens and hows of the platforms occluding the player), but also complicates others (eg. you can't join two such platforms side-by-side, so you then need to build an additional 2 types of isometric platforms for that purpose; also it wouldn't look good for very small platforms). I briefly flirted with using that method for Spryke, but it seemed too limiting.



    Another big advantage of using a non-flat platform style is that it gives you more breathing room with visual structure by loosening the link between the collision shape and the visual skin shape. For example, this would use a straight collision rectangle, but they can play with it to make it look like a more haphazard stack of boards:


  4. #114
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    lol, i was about to say, "that's the one! that's the look! u nailed it!"

  5. #115
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    Yeah I reckon it looks a bit more balanced and the creature does not look crammed onto the platform if you know what I mean?..

    also there is a really good video on the rayman level editor that is worth a watch

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-chi097uV4

  6. #116
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    I've seen that before, but just watched it again. I forgot just how insane that level editor was!

  7. #117
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    If the look of the platfom has to be very sharp (like in geometric metal blocks)
    I find these kind of perspectives more comfortabe to the eyes:



    (ever played/ remember "Pushover"? )

    or this (opposite direction) from Contra2(Probotector):




    I don't like the "both edges" look of that first Rayman platform...
    feels a bit too fake imo when both edges are on screen
    unless you have them a bit smoothened like these for example:




    However this loses much significance with more organic/not strictly geometric shapes when you have more freedom and that looks good


    Now a completely crazy idea

    what about making "geometric" ones truly perspective,
    shifting around while you move
    (i.e. culd be easy with a 3D plugin.. cough ..)
    and manually parallaxing organic ones?
    You'd test for collision only on the foremost part of the platform, for true-perspective ones, or anyway against a square mask
    (always fixed and always square) so this wouldn't change the collisions code

    Might fit not that well alltogether though... and sure some considerable more hassle!
    (but perhaps less than drawing all possible combinations to get it right..?)
    well just an idea

  8. #118
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    @schrodinger : Very intriguing idea. I don't fully understand how it would work though, so I have some questions if you don't mind.


    ---Would I need to separate the tops and sides from the fronts, and apply 3D to only the tops and sides?

    ---Would it have a significant performance cost?

    ---Would it use smooth AA when deforming the graphics?

    ---Would a shape like this be doable, or would it qualify as an 'organic' shape that needs to be hand-parallaxed:



    ---What do you mean by hand-parallaxing organic shapes actually?

    ---Do you have something similar to that that already built in one of your P3D examples that you could post a video/gif of?

    Sorry about the hundred questions

  9. #119
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    I had posted a rough video a few days ago on a 2D+3D platformer "scene"
    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNboprDjqZ4)
    but that didn't use many platforms so I'll cook up another in the afternoon,
    very simple, just to show the idea of course..

    ---Would I need to separate the tops and sides from the fronts, and apply 3D to only the tops and sides?
    The way I think at it is having these "3D" blocks below your actual 2D platforms, so you would put a flat "front" image,
    and the 3D projection of the "cuboid" below would handle all the perspective gimmicks needed. A bit like the crates you see at the end of the video link above.

    ---Would it have a significant performance cost?
    Depends on how many platforms, can speak for P3D, on my (not so good, you know from my Spryke demo testings)
    I think it could handle safely at least about one hundred cubes (>> 100 platform blocks) at 100 fps
    but I'll have that example done later with more solid figures..
    without all the collision checks overhead and with limited view area (platforms don't go that much in depth!) this should be pretty quick to handle

    ---Would it use smooth AA when deforming the graphics?
    Graphics are handled by a set of shaders, the texture is scaled though and in P3D there's an option to use Fusion's "0/1" quality setting for scaling (1= antialiased)
    will include the tick in the example so you can try!

    ---Would a shape like this be doable, or would it qualify as an 'organic' shape that needs to be hand-parallaxed:
    yeah, curved=organic (unless it's a perfect shape like a sphere or cylinder... possibly others in the future..)
    well you could use a good number of triangles to reproduce the same (but more triangles= more processing, and much more hassle to get the shape done!)
    or use displacement maps, but that's a bit more intensive and requires you to create the displacement map... (plus it might look a bit to jaggy... but maybe not if distant enough)

    ---What do you mean by hand-parallaxing organic shapes actually?
    Just meant adding a number of parallaxed layers,
    I think it's not that noticeable when there's some rocks/ground in the front and various layers of awesome painted stuff behind

    ---Do you have something similar to that that already built in one of your P3D examples that you could post a video/gif of?
    Going to make something quick and more fitting,
    I wanted to make an example for the update anyway so it's good for me too

    I'm sorry I can only reply for P3D, as I know what you can do with that,
    but I would presume it can be done in Firefly too, you'd need to check with some Firefly expert!
    (main thing I don't know is how it handles layering things above the projection.. and if it's easy to sync the 2D foreground with the 3D background
    for P3D you can simply have the "3D projection" layer behind your regular gaming layer with 2D platforms,
    and I've just included an option for 2D syncing in upcoming update)


    (edit: fps on topright of that video posted above are a bit misleading, there's a depth of 2000+, you would need but some hundred,
    there's some 250+triangles you won't need, plus I used a desktop screen recorder cutting down 10-15 fps alone..)

  10. #120
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    Ok made up a simple example with some platforms more in "the Spryke way"
    (well, if you use a good amount of imagination to see awesome graphics when there's now crappy sprites )
    and some random 3D objects placed here and there:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/4iv5yr15ou...ample.exe?dl=0

    Warning: default Fusion platform movement, getting stuck is behind the corner

    preview gif:



    A very plain level, with some random ideas like a "trap" platform rotating down towards the end
    (I think it's a nice fx because you don't have to animate it, and so it's flexible to behave the way you want)

    A random "platforms field" of 100 elements is created towards the far right of the level, to test performance in crowded environments.

    There's some displacement maps, I found them damaging performances with "resample" ticked, but maybe it's only my machine (see performance below)

    The way it is now all the "3D" stuff is behind the top layer, where the player and 2D platforms are.
    With some little customization, some 3D stuff could be put even "above" the player/platforms.

    I've left P3D simple "debug" box open on topright of screen so you can enable and disable "resample" from there,
    and also change render depth (how far you can see) with +/- buttons.

    Only the tiles where I've written "2D tile" are the real flat 2D obstacle platforms,
    against which the 2D hitbox collides as it would do in any plain 2D game.
    You can see the trick by using Q/E and/or A/D keys, those will tilt camera X and Y angles,
    so the 2D platforms will go out of sync with the 3D world, to resync again press "enter".

    On the editing process:
    I won't say this is exactly that comfortable to do on a large scale with plenty of platforms
    but don't know either how much hassle is making those "pseudo-isometric" platforms by hand...
    spent a couple hours making up the short example you see, though I can probably improve some aspects of the process.
    So basically I think it's worth considering not as a "time-saver" solution, but only if the visuals are pleasing enough
    (on that side, I guess the shaders could be slightly modified to improve on the antialiasing side, but should check better in case it's needed!)

    On the performance side:
    the file is capped at 200 fps, on my not that good pc it runs at solid 200 fps when not scrolling, at 180 when scrolling
    worse performances with "resample" ticked when the "displaced volumes" are in sight, going to about 130 fps
    and when there's about 100 platforms in sight (far right on the example), going down to 150 fps.
    When going full screen (alt+enter), it's almost always at full 200fps, but our good old microstutter is more noticeable here..

    There are some other things to consider, possible issues with the depth buffer and resolution changes etc. (you could probably avoid the depth buffer though)
    but won't go too much in detail as you might not like the result anyway.

    If on the other hand you like the idea, feel free to ask more info,
    I've spent some considerable time working on this kind of stuff and I'm happy to help Spryke if I can,
    even if you think you want to do it and end up not using P3D for that

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