Clickteam please improve PERFORMANCE of MMF2 games ASAP

I find it a little ludacris that some people support the fact we have to bring positive opinions and suggestions to a thread that was started flamey towards the product and then not taking on board previous correspondence from other developers.

I struggle to see why you would want that many actives per frame, then again I don't know the details of what you're trying to do, whatever the case, you want to fit 800 objects into a resolution that is LESS than 640x480, can't seriously be any room left for anything else on the frame. If objects appear outside of the frame then just code MMF2 to discard those objects until in view.

I also fail to see how DX9 mode would fail on this, as said previous I have managed numerous stress tests on standard and when that drops ~10fps I can switch to HWA and then stress it a further 30 or 40 times it's standard runtime limit. It would appear to me this is NOT a case of visuals and/or graphics usage or memory usage for that matter. It seems to me from the outset that your issue lies within the code.

There are some flaws to MMF2 which everyone is pretty much aware of now so it's just a case of working around those flaws, as long as there is a workaround I see no issue in using MMF2 to basically do, any type of game/genre.

Can you not post a watered down version of your MFA on here for all us to check out? As long as the problem occurs as your end, we can all download the same MFA and try pin-point the problem. If it IS a ClickTeam issue then maybe it could be addressed, until then there is no point everybody speculating what the problem might be to an otherwise invisible problem.

Nivram is right, although venting frustration and responding to it is inevitable, they don't fix the problem.

So....

I am MMF 2's most inefficient user, but are the colors set to 16 million, or the next step down? Personally, I don't find that much of a difference, and if it speeds things up, it would be worth it.

Maybe you should post the most processor heavy procedures and see if any of the super brainy types here can help.

Sorry Grim_Jester. I deleted that post as it was inappropriate.

Marv

"How can you just imply that I have 'bad created' and 'bad programmed' my game? You have no clue what my game engine looks like, do you? So don't be so arrogant and try to help and be constructive. Right now you're not helping anyone. "

- Back the post page and read again my post......I said "IF your game it's bad created and bad programmed..." IF it's not a affirmation....

I've tried to say to you that ALL OF ENGINES IN THE WORLD need to be worked knowing about performance and memory usage.....I quoted the cryengine 3 sandbox for example....and I do not need to go so far.....it's not about bad engine or processor core usage....

Just try to get the hammer editor (level editor for source half-life 2 engine) for example...Source i'ts simply a perfect programmed engine and even then it is possible to made a level in Counter-Strike Source for example that you freeze the game in a Intel i7 for example......

Try to think about this my friend,
Best regards

Blue66 - So even after all my suggestion of you posting the 'actual' MFA here for everyone to look at, you still aim this directly at Clickteam. If you think only Clickteam can deal with this issue and you don't want to share your source, then us other developers are blind to what the problem could actually be.

If that is the case, then you should've emailed Clickteam directly, posting this on the public community forums is gonna beg for a response from other developers to try and help or assist, it's no good throwing at developers "this doesn't work" or "that doesn't work" if you don't want to help the issue by submitting an MFA replicating the problem. All our hands are tied from this point on, so if you're not prepared to share the MFA or point out where in your source (with screenshots or videos) I fail to see how anyone on this forum could help you any further.

Quote from nivram

Danny. Actually I was shocked by your response. I find it a little ludacris that some people still don't get these forums. You should have just said shut up Marvin. You don't flame and the other developers, as you call them, were not being of any direct help, and flaming right back.

Marv, that wasn't aimed at you, I was thinking out loud. The OP's initial post is quite a dig at CT, the product and goes into a crazy frenzy without pointing out any facts on his problem, just a summary, 640x480 resolution, 800 objects helps nobody to see what this issue could be. Don't be offended Marv, it wasn't an aim at you. I, as many others have pointed out don't like someone who wants to start a thread with this kind of attitude and expect help from the community.

Quote from Blue66

Yes, I've made GunGirl2 and right now I'm working on the Panda game. And I don't know why I'm having so many problems with performance. In GG2 I was using way more events and never ran into any performance problems. Here, this is my main issue. Maybe it's because of the window stretching or I don't know.

You know, I'm on the brink of just throwing the towel on this project, even after I've spent the last 2 years on it. And that is just because MMF2 is giving me such a damn hard time with the PERFORMANCE

Just take a little rest, you are burnt out, I know how frustrating it is when you get stuck into a problem and you see no exit in sight. If there's been interest for the panda game for 2 years it's for a good reason, must be a good game, certainly looks like it, heck, I would pay for it. So don't give up!

There must be something specific causing those problems, maybe taking a look at the GunGirl2 code can give you a hint to where to start looking. What was your biggest level there? What kind of properties did the objects have (inactive when outside the frame, etc)? What extensions you used? etc. Try running the panda game un-stretched, at 640x480, etc. Debugg to find what's causing the problem. Check your loops, check the objects you created at runtime. There must be something that's ruining the performance. Because after seeing GG2 with the big levels, high-res graphics and all the sprites, blood and stuff that could perfectly handle I just can't believe you are having problems with this new game.

If necessary, ask for assistance. There are many experienced and great coders here. Maybe they can take a look at your code and help you fix the problem.

Thanks Danny. I had deleted that post as not being appropriate. And, it wasn't.

Marv

Do you use a lot of fastloops? the foreach object can help, also search the forum for fastloop optimization, Ive seen huge improvements in performance when using these two methods.

How bout we see if this is a problem we can solve

Blue66, if you can try to answer these questions im sure it will make it so much easier for people to help you solve or identify your problem

GENERAL
Your making a Platformer Game correct?
What is the target platform for the game?
Is the whole game in 1 Frame, or is the game divided amonst multiple Frames/ Levels?
Whats the size of the visible game Frame ( 640x480 etc )?

DESIGN
In general, are your game Objects composed of 1 or more Active Objects ( example: seperate Actives for arms, legs etc )?
Does the games scroll?
Is there potentially alot of Collisions occuring at the same time, aprox how many?
Are you changing the Scaling or Angle of Objects alot?

EVENT EDITOR
Aprox how many Events is there in the Game?
Are you deactivating Groups Of Events when they are not needed?
To what extent are you using Fast Loops/ For Each Loops?

GRAPHICS
What are the generall dimencions of your game Objects?
Are there any game Objects that are particularily large?
Is the detail level of your Objects/ Background Textures high?
Are you using large and detailed Backdrop Objects?
Are you using any special effects:
ink effects?
alpha channels?
shaders?
graphical extencions?

I find it much easier if someone can have a look at the mfa. Again, my new game world has a size of 24576x19968 pixels and 100374 objects exists within it - using one single MMF2 frame. It works because the level format is external and I dynamically load and unload what the game needs for the moment. My old game Knytt doesn't have an external level format, is 32400x1920 pixels, the frame contains 52100 objects, 4741 of them being non-backdrops, and I have zero performance problems. Knytt is a rather simple game, but trust me, my new game pushes every aspect of MMF2. So, when you mention you have problems with around 800 objects, yet you do simpler AI's than the one in Doom, it does sound likely that there's something quite unoptimized about your programming even though we haven't seen your mfa.

Solution? Post the .mfa! Maybe in private to a few skilled users who you trust to not distribute it. If you haven't optimized things nicely, they'll know exactly what's wrong and can help. If you actually did optimize it, they can see where the bottleneck in MMF2 is. It's more useful for CT if you point at specific things, like "object iteration is too slow for reason X and Y, and I can't work around it for reason Z, maybe you should consider implementing the features V and W", than to just say "MMF2 is too slow, make MMF2 faster". The former can result in CT actually making useful additions or extension developers doing stuff like the ForEach object which helps performance massively. The latter isn't helpful - something you need to be if you expect help back.

A bad craftsman always blames his tools.

I can't think of the last time this quote has been so relevant. "Why can't I have my cake and eat it too?? It's the cake's fault!!" If you want massive optimal unlimited performance you need to code your software with proper memory allocation, you can't use a code-free drag & drop deal without doing any optimisation. And if you must, you can't go calling yourself a developer.

My guess is that Crysis2 would use something like OpenGL or DirectX so try using HWA or different runtime options and things will go faster. Even if you are coding with C++ etc you can have slowness with games just the same if you don't optimize so rather than blame the tool try and learn how to use it better instead.

This is an interesting thread, and although I love clickteam, the software, and all the support they give. I do agree with Blue here. The amount of work arounds that we have done to Paint My World to get performance up to standard is.. just insane. I admit a lot of it, is making sure the game runs on other platforms, flash, iOS etc. But the game could easily have problems running in a Windows environment if we are not constantly careful about how we code the game. Nifflas pointed out that he has to be clever in how he creates his games due to similar reasons. It does concern me the more we add to Paint My World the more problems we are going to encounter in the future. For example due to us putting the game on other platforms, levels exist within MMF itself, this gives us a fairly large number of frames, where as we also have a level editor that will for the main Windows / PC version will allow us to have all the levels external to the application. This has been planned from the start, due to previous knowledge of how performance can be a very important factor when creating a game within MMF. There is also no doubt the creation of the game would be faster, if we didn't have to worry 'as much' about performance as we do at the moment.

On the other hand, the software saves us a lot of time compared to if we used other creation tools to create the game, and is perfect for our current needs. Is the time saved there, is worth the time in all the performance tweaks and workarounds that are required? Maybe, possibly, other engines are getting more and more tools which speed up the process of game design, but a lot aren't even crafted to work within a 2D environment like MMF is anyway.

As I said, intersting thread :).

I feel like some of you guys need to just go and play LittleBigPlanet

Used to have problems using the old MMF. But nothing with mmf2 yet.. mind back when i was working in mmf my game had a crazy amount on onscreen objects at one time.

Quote from Blue66

But besides that, my other point still stands. How comes Clickteam and ALL people here in the thread ignore my complaint about MMF2 apparently not using hyper-thread technology? Because if they don't use it, this is a MAJOR DEAL and you guys simply ignore it and point your fingers at me? Dual core CPUs are not a new thing and it's a modern technology STANDARD that even goes for CELL PHONES! Don't you think THIS is the real bottle neck here? And you guys just let this one slide and want to make me look like a bad programmer who doesn't optimize his stuff?! What's up with that? Hypocritical much.

Hyperthreading is a technology patented and owned by Intel. There's not much they can do about it.

Hyper-threading? Please make sure to be knowledgeable about a topic before discussing it. Hyper-threading is Intel's technology of increasing the performance of CPUs by splitting up a single CPU core into two virtual ones. This doesn't have anything to do with MMF. Threading itself, which allows for parallel processing, has been around for ages... the problem here is the PROGRAMMING. Multi-threading is complicated, especially in a case like MMF. Do you realize that to actually utilize multiple CPU cores at once, your program has to be structured in a way that it does? How is MMF supposed to run your game on two cores if your code was written for a single core and is SUPPOSED to be processed in a completely linear fashion? This is all very complicated and MMF was released in 2006, where parallel processing wasn't that big yet. For MMF3, we might see some concepts of this implemented but you will still have to make sure to code in a way that allows MMF to utilize the power of multiple CPUs. MMF isn't a tool that poops out amazing games with a single mouse-click. It's usually easier than real languages like C++ but it's still hard work. I hope I could shed some light on this... multi-threading is completely unnecessary in most program structures. It comes in handy when you're working with huge chunks of data or want to generate something in the background. MMF's performance issues have nothing to do with that.

By the way, we don't like users telling other users to shut up, thanks I can see how DistantJ's post might have been a little provoking, but still.