MooClick : Name Bugs

[James]

Moo does not use UDP from what I understand, it also has an issue with blasting text from what I have heard but I have never had the issue myself.

It doesn't, and it can't, use UDP. Any support for blasting text was removed in MMF2 so Moo can only use TCP. It is not possible to make a speed critical game using only TCP.

DR never worked and we knew that going it to it years ago, thats part of the UDP thing from what I understand.

It doesn't work, and it's impossible to create your own dead reckoning system, because there is no UDP support.

Nothing I am aware of prevents the object from being used in production

You just contradicted yourself. You said that dead reckoning doesn't work, and then said that nothing prevents the object from being used in production? What do you propose to create with it?

and just because you have created a partial product to replace it does not discount the value that MOO has brought to MMF for years.

Partial product? It does more than Moo does, so I wouldn't call it partial. Maybe it doesn't "discount" the value, but it certainly replaces it.

You keep saying Moo has issues as you promote OINC but what are those issues?

The lack of UDP, the limited protocol, the complicated usage and the lack of support or updates?

You want people to use your product yet when I sent you a PM asking for docs your reply, rather than an answer, was to tell me, (not ask me) to post it in the OINC sub-forum...

Maybe that's because I don't have time to provide private technical support for everyone who wants to use my extensions? My response was "You should post this in the OINC subforum", which wasn't a command, it was a suggestion?

I did not post this in the forum for good reason, I am tiered of peoples snide remarks and quick tempers.

If you can't put up with that, you're not going to get technical support, are you?

It even comes from people you try to help such as this example that just took place...

http://www.clickteam.com/epicenter/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=110234&fpart=2

I tried to help MechaBowser with an issue and because he did not have the foresight to put all the details of what he was doing and what he was using in the original post I missed where he said he was using Firefox at the end of a line that talked about CPU usage half way down the page at the bottom of a post. I read up to that point of that line and never saw the end since the CPU usage was not an important factor for the solution. Yet his reply to me was to point out he had already said that in a previous post. Fine, he can figure it out for himself if thats his way of addressing me and as far as OINC, unless your willing to work with others to allow them to test it the way they feel comfortable with a new product then live with what you get!

So basically, MechaBowser annoyed you, and you felt like taking it out on me?

You don't hear me crying about the fact that very few people did anything with the MMFDBE and that is something that MMF has needed for years.

It's obviously not something that MMF has needed for years, as nobody has done anything with it. People are actually using MooClick, and I have written a perfectly viable alternative.

OINC is an upgrade to an abandoned object that currently can get the job done with a bit of work. What did you expect!

No it isn't, I wrote it from scratch, and Moo can't get the job done even with a bit of work. No UDP.

Now if your willing to provide the docs as I ask then I would be willing to even look at setting up a public server as I have several public IP's I could do this with but it will be done under my terms, not yours, so I will wait until you make some docs I can look at and make them available to me.

Great.

Then I might consider moving my MOO projects that work just fine to OINC. Until then you should stop promoting a product in open forums that is not ready for production as this is causing confusion between what should be used for production and what should not be used for production as you can see in this post as well as others.

I'm encouraging people to help test the alpha of a replacement for Moo, so that any bugs can be quickly rectified and so that I can get it out the door for release, for use in production. If you use Moo because OINC isn't "ready", OINC is never going to become "ready".

And since your so eager to talk about the issues with MOO can you point me to a list of the errors you are talking about?

You're repeating yourself. I already answered this one.

As a Moderator of this site who as been announcing the errors of MOO every chance you get I, as well as other I am sure, will expect one of two things from you.

1. Provide the list of errors your talking about and how they effect the inability to use the MOO API for what we need as developers.

Scroll up. You repeated yourself again. And it's "affect", not "effect".

2. Keep your mouth shut and do your job as a Moderator and stop using your position as a Moderator to promote a product that is not fulling working.

I'm not using my position as a moderator to promote a product that is not fully working, I'm using my position as a peer on this forum to suggest that people help test OINC instead of using Moo. Don't need to use my moderator priviliges for that. And while I'm at it, it's "fully", not "fulling". I like the way you are trying to be civil, and then telling me to "keep my mouth shut". How mature.

We need help that will work in the big picture when we develop for release and as a Moderator you should know better.

In the big picture, it'd be better to help test OINC, so that you can have a more powerful and efficient solution when you develop for release. Please don't question my position as moderator- I do that job rather well. It happens to be seperate from my job as a programmer.

[ChrisB]

Off-topic:

I don't see the issue with a moderator or indeed any user promoting a relevant extension, even if they made it. MOO has limitations that OINC addresses, however MOO has been used by many, more people have working knowledge of it and it isn't going to change. Neither one of them is flawless and bug-free; if you find a bug in either OINC or MOO they will not be fixed on your terms. You choose whichever one is best for your project and that is not the same as everybody else.

Advocating an extension over another is not a sin. Complaints about it help nobody and will probably be deleted.

On-topic:

Dynamite, is that the entire event, no other conditions? I don't think that will work unless you are doing it at the same time you receive a message that affects that user - and even then, it will be unacceptable if remote players continue to move between messages (as with dead reckoning).

A more robust solution is to spread an alterable value in the Text Blitter objects and use a fastloop to:

• Compare the Text Blitter's spreaded alterable value to the fastloop index
- set the current MooClick user by index to the fastloop index
- set the Text Blitter's text to the selected user's username
- set the Text Blitter's position to above that of the user (note: you will need to add a condition to get the correct user, which depends on how you chose to identify them)

You also have to make sure you create enough Text Blitter objects for each user and destroy one when each user leaves.

[Kimera]

It doesn't, and it can't, use UDP. Any support for blasting text was removed in MMF2 so Moo can only use TCP. It is not possible to make a speed critical game using only TCP.

and

It doesn't work, and it's impossible to create your own dead reckoning system, because there is no UDP support.

so I was correct then, thank you for pointing that out.

You just contradicted yourself. You said that dead reckoning doesn't work, and then said that nothing prevents the object from being used in production? What do you propose to create with it?

No, I said it did not work from the beginning and if it did not work from the start then it's not a function of the object there for it's not a contradiction but an observation and the post never said a thing about DR to begin with we don't even know that it's needed for the job! If not, as with the apps I have used MOO for, then it works fine!

Partial product? It does more than Moo does, so I wouldn't call it partial. Maybe it doesn't "discount" the value, but it certainly replaces it.

Yes, as I pointed out in my first post that provided the answer to this solution for this topic, OINC is a product I am keeping an eye on and I thought you have done a good job with it so far but in case you forgot you posted

The current release of OINC is an alpha build

meaning it's not finished, hence a partial product and no matter how you slice it, how much functionality it has more than MOO, that is what it is right now so get over yourself.

The lack of UDP, the limited protocol, the complicated usage and the lack of support or updates?

These are not errors but limitations and for you to sensationalize the limitations as errors to make your product look better is childish on your part and not needed as OINC speaks for itself. You can thank DarkKiller for doing your job for you in his post as those are the real issues with MOO and go beyond the limitations.

So basically, MechaBowser annoyed you, and you felt like taking it out on me?

I did not take anything out on you and I never said MechaBowser annoyed me so please don't put words in my mouth. I just said I did not like the way he addressed me and there for he can figure it out himself, but did respond to your post I found somewhat snotty...

Moo has issues, and if nobody helps test OINC, it's not going to improve, is it?

As a moderator of this site you should know better than to push alpha products to users who are making something for release. While I also feel your product should be tested, used, and pounded on by many users, in alpha format it should only be used in a testing environment and from what I can tell you have not set one of those up yet for the public to pound on. Correct me if I am wrong but I don't see a public OINC server yet there are several MOO servers that people can play with, though they are somewhat unreliable from what I understand. If you want people to use the object more there needs to be a public server environment they can use.

It's obviously not something that MMF has needed for years, as nobody has done anything with it. People are actually using MooClick, and I have written a perfectly viable alternative.

What I said is very few, and it was a comparison based on the number of users in the forum and, like MOO but not as much as MOO, my product is being used by people and I am getting testing feedback on things to add from users as well as what they are having issues with. As in my post, I made it for me and wanted to make it available to other who might have a use for it and that is what happen. I am not attempting to replace any object but rather add additional functionality that MMF does not already have.

No it isn't, I wrote it from scratch, and Moo can't get the job done even with a bit of work. No UDP.

For this I own you an apology as it was the wrong choice of words and I did not intend to imply you had not written it from scratch but rather an update in terms of a network object for MMF. I realize it's all your work and that you have worked very hard at it.

Maybe that's because I don't have time to provide private technical support for everyone who wants to use my extensions? My response was "You should post this in the OINC sub-forum", which wasn't a command, it was a suggestion?

I just ask for a link to the docs, not support, not much time and yet you feel you are above that?

I have done support for years and never have I felt the need to brush off anyone who has ask for help from any of the 4 companies I own no matter how small the question is. We develop for international banks, local government entities and international companies and as the owner I answer the question then direct them to the proper location to get the information in the future, that is support! You have a lot to learn yet based on your support comments as when giving suggestions to people you should also address their question as well, but I can see how providing a link in a PM might tax your time. You would not have to deal with that if you would have addressed the issue in your posts or included it in the download and if there are no docs that's all you had to say and you would not have had to say it in a public forum.

If you can't put up with that, you're not going to get technical support, are you?

POT/KETTLE If you can't deal with providing users with the information they need to use your object then you need to shut your doors as you were the one who was unwilling to provide support to a user who just ask for docs.

You talk about how I repeated your announcement of the MOO API errors, you will notice that in the english language this is done as support for making an additional point that stems from the original point as I have done.

And u corected a fat fingr speling erorr. iS that tha best u can due? I wood guess that everyone who red it got the msg just fine, just as with this senince!

I also want to apologize for the "keep your mouth shut comment" as I see it means more to you in a negative manner than it does for me and that was not the intent at all. Keep your mouth shut and do your job is how I was raised and I can see how it can be taken offensively, I do apologize. Though I am very blunt I try not to be rude and the point is by pushing a alpha or beta product to people who are developing a release product you create confusion and as a moderator part of your job, I would think, is to help reduce confusion about the product the users have paid for (MMF).

I'm encouraging people to help test the alpha of a replacement for Moo, so that any bugs can be quickly rectified and so that I can get it out the door for release, for use in production. If you use Moo because OINC isn't "ready", OINC is never going to become "ready".

Yes, it will if you do it right and I can help you do so if your interested in making it happen.

Now we have 2 choices here. We can use our intelligence to battle back and forth to see who has the larger IQ and this post will be closed

- or -

We can use our talents and assets to provide a viable public server environment for the OINC object.

I am sorry that your not getting the response you would like for OINC as I feel it's an important object and something that is needed by MMF users. I would be willing to help you reach that goal by putting up a public OINC server if your able to put this behind us as it is stupid!

I can give you access to that IP and I will set up a server there for you if we need a dedicated server. This does not change my opinion that alpha and beta software should not be pushed in a development environment and that doing so is wrong on many levels but by reaching your goal then my issue goes away solving both our issues. Your understandable need to want and need the object tested and my desire to keep the confusion to MMF users to a minimum by not pushing a partial product just because it needs testing. This is what Microsoft does and most people hate about their OS, it's also the reason they are going to abandon Vista, it was pushed in to a release environment before it was ready and it's to hard to go backwards to fix the programming.

Are we adult enough to get over ourselves and put together a public server environment or are we going to stomp our feet and be right?

K

[James]

No, I said it did not work from the beginning and if it did not work from the start then it's not a function of the object there for it's not a contradiction but an observation and the post never said a thing about DR to begin with we don't even know that it's needed for the job! If not, as with the apps I have used MOO for, then it works fine!

It is a function of the object, the actions are there and it's in the documentation.

meaning it's not finished, hence a partial product and no matter how you slice it, how much functionality it has more than MOO, that is what it is right now so get over yourself.

Maybe you should get over yourself. You just started attacking me over one post that I made because of something MechaBowser did. That's pretty messed up.

These are not errors but limitations and for you to sensationalize the limitations as errors to make your product look better is childish on your part and not needed as OINC speaks for itself. You can thank DarkKiller for doing your job for you in his post as those are the real issues with MOO and go beyond the limitations.

Well, now you have your real issues. Go test OINC.

I did not take anything out on you and I never said MechaBowser annoyed me so please don't put words in my mouth. I just said I did not like the way he addressed me and there for he can figure it out himself, but did respond to your post I found somewhat snotty...

I fail to understand how the way that MechaBowser addressed you had anything to do with me or with OINC. I'm pretty sure when you have a little tantrum at someone else, writing a few paragraphs on something completely unrelated.. that's taking it out on them.

As a moderator of this site you should know better than to push alpha products to users who are making something for release.

You're using the moderator thing again. As a developer, it is my duty to encourage people to help test improved products. Who better to test than the people who are using Moo already? What better way to test an extension than to develop a game with it?

While I also feel your product should be tested, used, and pounded on by many users, in alpha format it should only be used in a testing environment

Well, it was me who gave it alpha status. I could quite easily say right, this is a release, but I'd rather it get tested thoroughly first..

and from what I can tell you have not set one of those up yet for the public to pound on. Correct me if I am wrong but I don't see a public OINC server yet there are several MOO servers that people can play with, though they are somewhat unreliable from what I understand. If you want people to use the object more there needs to be a public server environment they can use.

There's two reliable public OINC servers running 24/7. Get your facts straight before you try to use them against me.

I just ask for a link to the docs, not support, not much time and yet you feel you are above that?

There isn't any docs. There's a few examples in the testing forum which should get you started.

I have done support for years and never have I felt the need to brush off anyone who has ask for help from any of the 4 companies I own no matter how small the question is.

Well, I would have answered it if you just posted it in the subforum. Unfortunately, you chose to attack me instead, so I guess you never got anything back.

There's a reason we have public forums. Other people ask the same questions as you do, and it's helpful if they can just search.

We develop for international banks, local government entities and international companies and as the owner I answer the question then direct them to the proper location to get the information in the future, that is support!

I don't really care.. why are you advertising your company again?

You have a lot to learn yet based on your support comments as when giving suggestions to people you should also address their question as well,

Well, I think that's for me to decide. You have a lot to learn about crying that people aren't civil when you can't be civil yourself.

POT/KETTLE If you can't deal with providing users with the information they need to use your object then you need to shut your doors as you were the one who was unwilling to provide support to a user who just ask for docs.

Who said anything about unwilling to provide support? I asked that you post it in the public subforum so I can respond to it there, so that anyone else with the same question can just read it. I don't think that's too much to ask of you.

You talk about how I repeated your announcement of the MOO API errors, you will notice that in the english language this is done as support for making an additional point that stems from the original point as I have done.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of your points were invalid.

I also want to apologize for the "keep your mouth shut comment" as I see it means more to you in a negative manner than it does for me and that was not the intent at all. Keep your mouth shut and do your job is how I was raised

I can tell.

the point is by pushing a alpha or beta product to people who are developing a release product you create confusion

No, I pushed it to people to test. I don't think that creates confusion.

and as a moderator part of your job, I would think, is to help reduce confusion about the product the users have paid for (MMF).

Moo and OINC were not included when you paid for MMF. They are an additional privilege provided for free to the userbase.

Yes, it will if you do it right and I can help you do so if your interested in making it happen.

What, it will improve if nobody tests it? What?

Now we have 2 choices here. We can use our intelligence to battle back and forth to see who has the larger IQ and this post will be closed

Yes, and I'll close it.

- or -

We can use our talents and assets to provide a viable public server environment for the OINC object. I am sorry that your not getting the response you would like for OINC as I feel it's an important object and something that is needed by MMF users. I would be willing to help you reach that goal by putting up a public OINC server if your able to put this behind us as it is stupid! I can give you access to that IP and I will set up a server there for you if we need a dedicated server.

There's already two available, but if you want to set up a public server, the resources are readily available. There's a server written in C++ to run on Windows, or a server written in Python to run on any platform.

This does not change my opinion that alpha and beta software should not be pushed in a development environment and that doing so is wrong on many levels but by reaching your goal then my issue goes away solving both our issues.

Well, I'm glad we came to an agreement.

Your understandable need to want and need the object tested and my desire to keep the confusion to MMF users to a minimum by not pushing a partial product just because it needs testing.

Well, if people are going to be converting their Moo projects to OINC at a later date, they might as well start off using OINC.

This is what Microsoft does and most people hate about their OS, it's also the reason they are going to abandon Vista, it was pushed in to a release environment before it was ready and it's to hard to go backwards to fix the programming.

I never had a problem with Vista, and Microsoft are a very successful company!

Are we adult enough to get over ourselves and put together a public server environment or are we going to stomp our feet and be right?

Well, I didn't start this off. If you want to set up a public server, I am fine with that, and I will cooperate in any way you want.

[James]

Closing this now. Anything else regarding OINC can be discussed in the OINC subforum.