Xcode - Alternatives

[DistantJ]

...I don't see the point that this turned into a flame war????

No, it is NOT an attack on you, don't flatter yourself, if you think back, in your thread I was saying that I am sick of these threads. I've been saying it for the past 4-5 times this same thread has come up and come to the same conclusion. Then we get the same guy protesting with the 'why you gotta be so meeeeannnn?'

OK how long have you got... Keep going back, we got 47 pages on here, and the same topic pops up about every 5 pages or so, and it pops up inside unrelated topics too. It's been going on since this forum started. Here are some recent ones. If you like, you can look at them in consecutive order and watch my (and others') patience slowly disappear.

http://community.clickteam.com/showthread.php?t=69084
http://community.clickteam.com/showthread.php?t=71181
http://community.clickteam.com/showthread.php?t=71911

These topics have been coming up since the iOS exporter came out. The rest of us paid, why shouldn't you have to? And quit with the 'nobody wants you hear' talk, you've only just shown up in this section of the site and many people will tell you I've been a huge help to other iOS developers on here, fixing people's .mfa files, submitting examples, helping to develop (and developing my own) extensions. I also beta test the Android exporter for ClickTeam. A lot of people will vouch for me being helpful. I am just fed up of these same threads, and then people spitting the dummy when we say "well, it's not the best idea".

And ya gotta admit, my taxi analogy works here... Seems to be selling out, to be a militant 'anti-Apple' type, asking Apple developers how to make money from Apple, without purchasing the required Apple gear...

To save offending more people I am thinking of making a 'how to minimise your development costs' thread and seeing if I can get it stickied or something. Cause you do come in here to people (particularly me) who have been being asked this time and time again, all of whom have invested relatively heavily in what they do.

[Danny]

DistantJ, congratulations on making yourself look like a complete tit, yet again.

Get off my thread and go flame your words somewhere else. My choice, my preference. If you have nothing positive to contribute to this thread I suggest you don't even look at them. Do not post stupid and childish comments on my thread, I have been a member here for quite some time, I don't deserve to be spoken to like a retard.

I have a few words which I'll keep to myself. FYI: I already am participating quite actively in the Android Development, I already own MMF2 DEV, I own the Flash Exporter and I own the XNA exporter. I have purchased a tablet and two android phones for development. I have also purchased another Xbox and soon a Windows phone for my developments. Do not insult me or other members to which you know nothing about, especially in regards to investment.

Go and play with your collective analogies and leave my thread alone you complete muppet.

[Mantis]

No, it is NOT an attack on you, don't flatter yourself, if you think back, in your thread I was saying that I am sick of these threads.

Oh, I was basing the assumption on my experience in my own thread and this thread. I apologise. I didn't realise that you got hot and bothered about development costs in general.

OK how long have you got... Keep going back, we got 47 pages on here, and the same topic pops up about every 5 pages or so, and it pops up inside unrelated topics too. It's been going on since this forum started.

For the sake of argument, let's call it 45 pages. Let's also do some basic arithmetic. For every page, there is twenty threads. 45 x 20 = 900. For every five pages, there is one thread about development costs. Therefore, there are nine threads in total about development costs and alternatives for iOS going by what you have said.

This means that only 1% of all iOS threads are about this topic. I'm sure even you agree that your explanation no longer holds water and even the most argumentative person should be able to simply ignore such threads. Instead, you behave in a hostile manner and react with angry outbursts.

You said the community respects you. It may come as a surprise, but I never doubted that as far as your posts in general go. I can see that you have helped a lot of members with their questions and problems. That is a respectable quality. However, anything you disagree with you seem to react to aggressively. I'm not sure why you can't put the fact others are trying to save money behind you and stop being bitter about it. It would be nice if we all could be on the same page and not be at each other's throats.

[DistantJ]

Seriously, I'm not out to offend you. My honest advice to the OP is to get over this silly bias he has and be professional about it. I'm sorry if the best advice I can give is harsh but this is business and sometimes business you gotta hear what you don't want to hear and bite that proverbial bullet to get somewhere. If "hackintosh" and cloud services were a reasonable solution I'd be telling you how to make one right here and now and PMing any help I could, but we've seen people attempt it (here and in other communities) and end up having spent more time and money trying to get it right, then getting stuck as soon as XCode updates.

I'm sorry if it sounds harsh but brutal honesty is going to help your business better, and my honest truth here is A. it's a much easier, safer and more long term solution to just save up that extra $200 for a Mac Mini and B. biases and 'political' resentment of the business you want to team up with is contradictory crazy talk that will just hold you back.

My suggestion is to read into the history of Apple, Steve Jobs and iOS with an open mind, see how their work has helped to shape computers and technology just as much as that of Microsoft, kick that Apple resentment to the curb. I wouldn't encourage anyone to work on something they don't 100% believe in! Anything you need to know about Apple from a non-biased perspective (again, I work on and am a fan of all OS') just ask. I only ever want to help, and anyone from around here will vouch for that.

[Danny]

DistantJ - Everybody is entitled to their opinion, however when I first saw there was replies to this thread I thought they would be in the constructive criticism form not the manner in which you presented your posts. I always welcome everyones opinion and suggestions however I saw and heard your thoughts on the other threads which is why I started one regarding alternative methods and I included a disclaimer saying I already have seen the opinions, I am only interested in suggestions.

Maybe I responded a little harsh myself too, I didn't know how to react, I have never been spoken to like that on these forums. I don't belittle or undermine other people's intelligence on here so the last thing I expect is to be spoken to like that either, especially when I never instigated a valid reason for a flame. However, I apologise too and I understand your position and I also understand your view, however I stick by mine in a professional and personal matter too.

My biggest hunch with Apple is how they force their users along a linear path with absolutely no choice at all. In any other sector and any other market you have choices. If you don't like Photoshop choose GIMP, or Fireworks. Don't like MS C++ then use Borlands. If you're a Joiner and don't like Black and Decker Jigsaw's buy a Makita. With Apple there is no choice. I see thousands and thousands of threads in other forums where people are pissed at the fact to use Lion they have to now upgrade, they have no choice. It's appalling and from a business point of view this will eventually bite Apple back, I'm all for Android and Google with their open format instead.

It's totally not about Investment at all and yes you are correct it's a bad position for me to stand especially for commercial reasons however, I find it very hard to justify supporting a company with a linear format. I emailed MacinCloud and apparently this is all possible, however I have yet to take the plunge and try it. According to them I can compile my xCode project via dropbox then use a service called TestFlightApp to remotely send the project to my iPhone to test. Seems viable, but is it? I have no feedback but I am willing to try it.

At the very last push given the market I would purchase a Mac, but I am more than willing to try any alternative methods beforehand. I hope we can put these posts behind us and crack on with some positive research on this rather than maintaining a stance on opinion.

[Apex]

I have purchased a tablet and two android phones for development. I have also purchased another Xbox and soon a Windows phone for my developments. Do not insult me or other members to which you know nothing about, especially in regards to investment.

It seems that you shouldn't even develop for Apple devices if your heart isn't in it. Y'know. If you don't like Apple and give as little care towards testing and going through with the entire development cycle, it's going to show in your bug ridden, crashing games.

Any hatred towards a company for specific methods is just downright childish. You'd say the same to me if I ran around shouting that I won't develop for Android because it's malware-ridden and if I refused to develop for Microsoft platforms because I think Microsoft are just as money-grabbing as any other company. If you want to develop for Apple, invest that little bit further in it. You sound like you have enough money to invest if you've bought all of the stuff for XNA and Android development.

Apple's format may be linear, but it is simple and it is clean. The Android marketplace is always under fire for faulty games, poorly developed games (newbies to Java thinking they are the best around) and malware. It may be open format, but Google don't bother checking apps for problems until it's reported, which is...excuse my language...shi* business practice.

[DistantJ]

I am only interested in suggestions

Let me try this again, there's no intelligence insulting here what so ever. I'd be insulting your intelligence if I just glazed over this and tried to help you develop these apps in this maverick way you're going for. I feel that if I can help change your attitude towards Apple you can get to know this community and these platforms professionally and actually go somewhere with it. A good developer should be experienced in (and completely neutral about) all platforms. I used to have a friend who wanted to be a game designer, but wouldn't work for anybody who did games for any console but Nintendo. You know what happened? Well, obviously he didn't get a job. Not until we managed to snap him out of his bias and learn to appreciate all of the different business models of different companies. Now he works for Eurocom making multi platform games, and was put in charge of some of the best levels in Disney Universe.

I have never been spoken to like that on these forums. I don't belittle or undermine other people's intelligence on here so the last thing I expect is to be spoken to like that either

I'm not sure what out of our advice you consider an insult to you personally (hell I spent like 15 minutes re-reading and editing the post to try and keep it from sounding like an insult), we're out to help, and the only way you'll manage this and make it is to shake this bias. Perhaps we're more down to earth in this section of the forum, since this platform is where a lot of real business kicks off.

Apex is right, there are just as many arguments for a closed system as there are against one. I use an Android tablet and an iPhone, and I chose them that way around because I feel my phone should be reliable and straight to the point, whilst a tablet computer I like to think of something I have more control over. I mean, the thought that a mobile phone can get a virus now just sounds insane to me... I never have used a phone and thought "I wish I could root/install custom rom/customise the home screen" before, I've instead gone for the device which suits me most out of the box. That's my preference, but for others the iPad is ideal. The 'closed' idea only applies to iOS. My neighbour was an iOS hater and used to try and make fun of me for using a Mac (alongside Windows) and was stunned when I showed him you could do pretty much everything practical you can on his Windows PC on my Mac... And that as long as you have an Intel-based one you can install Windows on any Mac and dual boot it using Apple's built in 'boot camp' app and a Windows disk (they've built the ability to install Windows into the system, you don't need to do any command prompt stuff or anything like that, and then on startup you can pick which OS to run in. I know a couple of people who own MacBook Pros which they run Windows on 99% of the time), so Macs aren't locked down really, only their mobile platforms are, and that's for the purpose of keeping them reliable and responsive at all times. It's true too, my Android tab does fail me sometimes, leaving me to deal with some memory management etc. due to apps which don't release the memory properly, or different memory management in the different launchers and running processes, sometimes the battery will be draining at double speed and it'll take me a few days to realise it's due to something I recently installed etc., and that's just the nature of open systems.

My biggest hunch with Apple is how they force their users along a linear path with absolutely no choice at all. In any other sector and any other market you have choices. If you don't like Photoshop choose GIMP, or Fireworks. Don't like MS C++ then use Borlands. If you're a Joiner and don't like Black and Decker Jigsaw's buy a Makita. With Apple there is no choice. I see thousands and thousands of threads in other forums where people are pissed at the fact to use Lion they have to now upgrade, they have no choice. It's appalling and from a business point of view this will eventually bite Apple back, I'm all for Android and Google with their open format instead.

Depends how you look at it. The number of people I have had to convince that Android is a good thing, even after they've owned an Android phone... Because they've gotten one which can't handle the system, or one which is crammed full of bloatware and crappy launchers and skins that the manufacturer shoehorn in there. My girlfriend used to despise Android, she had an HTC Wildfire and it just slowed right down and seemed to do everything wrong. In the end I managed to convince her it was the phone, not the OS, and she got a Samsung Galaxy S when upgrading, and absolutely loves it. Similarly my father uses an HTC... something... an older one, and can't stand the thing, he wants to upgrade to an iPhone but I'm trying to convince him to go for Galaxy Note because I know it's better for what he's after, but the damage to the Android brand in his mind has already been done. There's also cases where people have inadvertently mucked their Android device up, my neighbour's Galaxy Note runs at a snail's pace because he packs it with his mods and doesn't mind waiting for lag, but it put one of his friends off the device because it was slow. If you close your software up, you know exactly how your product is going to perform whether for first time users, people trying a friend's or test-driving one in a store. Android is an absolute powerhouse for computer users, but its brand relationship with the casual user (non computer techie types) is in absolute shambles due to the inconsistency. I'm toying with upgrading to a Galaxy SIII but I'm nervous about how long it will last before Sammy abandon it, what issues it might have with what apps etc., if I upgrade to the next iPhone, well, I know exactly what to expect. What you see is what you get. This is good brand management.

I also think your comment there is uninformed and slightly naive... To develop for Android, no matter what you use generally you need to work with the Android SDK. You say we're forced and yet... How come we are on a forum where we use ClickTeam software to make iPhone games? Add to your list there "If you don't like Objective-C, use MMF2/Unity/Construct/others"... And um, Gimp and Fireworks are on Mac... No Mac ever forced anybody to use Photoshop... If you don't like the built in mail client you can use another, if you don't like Safari you can use Chrome/Firefox/Whatever, there's no difference here at all. It is only their mobile platforms (iPod, iPhone, iPad) which don't let you change the defaults, and on an MP3 player or a phone (not so much on a tablet, in my opinion, but that's for a whole other thread) I can't see how this is an important thing... and even on those you can use alternative programs (i.e. Chrome, Opera, Dolphin etc.), it just won't switch the default.

I'm not sure what you're saying about the Lion upgrade deal here, but any operating system will have certain requirements to be able to upgrade. Likely Apple hide OS upgrades from the app store on systems which can't handle it due to their style of "if it doesn't run well, it shouldn't run at all" brand management (essentially Apple spend a lot of their budget making sure stuff doesn't inexplicably slow down and freeze very often like it tends to on other OS', iOS and OSX are amazing with memory management, switching off all the right things to ensure the core system remains smooth and responsive), but generally Mac computers are very long lived, more so than any Windows device I've owned before anyway. Your contact may have been referring to the shift to Intel which happened not long ago, where some Macs over a certain age use a different CPU, which OSX Lion won't run on. However the shift to Intel was for compatibility purposes. If we're talking about upgrades, well every time a new iPhone comes out, all the new software features get rolled out to all of the powerful enough devices (my younger sister has a 3GS, 3 generations old, which still gets the newest features on the day of the new phone's launch), whilst my Galaxy Tab 8.9 is still chugging away on Android 3.2 Honeycomb while we wait for Samsung to roll out the 4.0 Ice Cream Sandwich update, whilst 4.1 Jellybean devices are starting to show up on the market, and rememberer that I can't use Chrome Mobile until the 4.0 update comes out.

The main thing I gripe about is on iOS is that you can't change the defaults - for example if you're one of the people who is using the new Chrome for iOS, you can use it every time you want to go on the net, sure, but if you click a link in an e-mail or app, it's always going to open in Safari. That's where maybe their lockdowns on iOS are being a little TOO careful, but that's another discussion altogether. Reality is though, surely a company should aim to make everything good enough out of the box, rather than giving users something adequate and then leaving them to patch it up to their standard? A matter of taste I guess.

I find it very hard to justify supporting a company with a linear format.

But don't you understand? In developing for them, you will be supporting them. They take 30% of every sale made on the app store (before you kick off, so do Google), and their 'linear format' will help to prevent your software being pirated here there and everywhere. If you want to develop for iOS I will offer you every bit of help and support I can, but it's such a double standard to resent a company and yet want to develop for them.

I'm going to put together an article about this Apple subject and about Apple development on a budget. I'd really like you to read it with an open mind.

[Danny]

DistantJ your post is just too much, I can't even bare to read all that I could only just skim it. Yet again, another thread has been hijacked from it's original post so I'll be asking a moderator to delete these posts.

You have your opinion and I have mine. This is a thread I started with a disclaimer yet you chose to go against that and still hijack it so we now have 1 and half pages of complete off-topic opinions when I want suggestions. You obviously aren't listening to me with regards to my opinion so what is the point in this discussion? You and a few others say "it's bad business, it's this and it's that..." I run a successful business thankyou and always have done.

My main point here is this, I am not developing for Apple exclusively I want to develop for the 'Market'. Two completely different things, fair enough it's apple's market but it's against your argument. Secondly, this thread was about 'alternatives' not opinions and I certainly didn't ask for business advice from you or Apex. So if you would both be so kind and run along with your Apple mentality and leave myself and others to discuss freely and openly what we want on this forum as with any other forum.

Last but not least...

I'm going to put together an article about this Apple subject and about Apple development on a budget. I'd really like you to read it with an open mind.

Again, you have this bee in your bonnet about 'budgets' and 'money restraints'. I said from the start I have no limited budget and I certainly have no investment restraints. I have spent in excess of £1700 just on hardware alone in the last 9 months for game development, that is called ROI, I can certainly be a judge towards what I purchase and what I don't. There are companies out there that choose not to support corporations, entities and/or products so they choose alternatives. It's a little bit like the FIFA model with EA Sports and their licensing. Go figure. It's not bad for business at all, which is why I am looking for an alternative way to compile xCode, if you have absolutely no positive feedback or suggestion yet want to continue this mad rant about 'funding' and 'budgeting' then go ahead and start your own topic. Please do not hijack my thread(s) and/or others.

[Phi]

Seems like this thread is kinda counter-productive. You need a Mac or Hackintosh to compile iOS code. You need a iOS-based device to test said code. I personally disagree with iOS's mostly fixated settings, but with Windows, you get too much freedom, enough to allow a virus to set itself to run as a proxy app for any .exe file execution.

I think it's ridiculous Apple expects you to pay for the privilege of coding for them, as that provides the idea that they're of the opinion that they get nothing out of it besides that payment.
But really, the only two reasons I don't code for iOS is my hate of Objective-C syntax and the lack of an iOS machine. There's a possibility I'll take the Hackintosh route or a virtual operating system, but atm I just don't have the cash and I'd rather learn ASM than Objective-C.

[James]

I personally disagree with iOS's mostly fixated settings, but with Windows, you get too much freedom, enough to allow a virus to set itself to run as a proxy app for any .exe file execution.

You're comparing Windows (desktop) with iOS and not OS X?