Optimum framerate for Flash

[Duncansby]

Hey,

I'm sort of cross-posting this from the Daily Click, there's some more context there: http://www.create-games.com/forum_post.asp?id=295269

My game currently runs at 60fps, and I'm seeking a few opinions on whether it would be judicious, in terms of performance on lower-end machines, to change my approach.

I've been advised by a non-MMF-using Flash developer friend that 60 is just too high and the game wouldn't suffer a bit to run in 30 instead. He's probably right about the latter and I suppose it'd be a pretty well guaranteed improvement on old computers, right?

The other option I guess would be a delta time retrofit. I'd really like to get some MMF users' opinions on doing this, because I've never really seen it talked about!

Either change would be a ton of work, so I'd really like to solicit some ideas before I jump in. Thanks in advance!

[dogzer]

I say stick to 60 fps! j/k

[King_Cool]

Whats wrong with the default Frame Rate?

[Danny]

Duncansby, the Frame Rate set in MMF2 is only for the main loop. This frame rate is set to ensure all objects remain consistent throughout the loop that is all. It makes absolutely no difference to any laptop, pc and/or browser running the game. The only thing the main loop would directly affect in a literal sense to the eye are timer-based movements.

[Duncansby]

@ByteDex: I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Outside of the old (unsupported in Flash, and maybe only relevant to built-in movements?) Machine Independent Speed option, MMF doesn't do delta time. So when my game drops from 60 to 40 frames per second, it's mechanically identical because I don't use any timer-based stuff, but it's also only running at two thirds of the proper speed. I think it's fair to say that the eye notices this.

If I target 30fps instead, the above problem goes away, right?

[dogzer]

Duncansby, the Frame Rate set in MMF2 is only for the main loop. This frame rate is set to ensure all objects remain consistent throughout the loop that is all. It makes absolutely no difference to any laptop, pc and/or browser running the game. The only thing the main loop would directly affect in a literal sense to the eye are timer-based movements.

Mr. ByteDex, Sir! I can't say I agree, or maybe I didn't understand correctly!

Fixing the framerate is only good for games not speeding up on faster computers.

The issue with Mr. Duncansby is that that MMF's framerate drops down badly on old laptops! In other words, if a computer can't achieve 60 frames per second, things will move relatively slower, with a slow mo fashion effect!

What we need is a quick way to adjust 'changing values' to the necessary framerate.

[Danny]

Dogzer it would appear you didn't understand

Any processor can compute 60 frames per second whether flash or a compiled executable. The only factors that would directly affect the fps internally are things like:
Amount of active objects, badly optimised code, unnecessary events, fastloops, using more than needed Always> conditions etc.

Externally you are limited by:
GPU, Memory, Processor, System Resources.

If you are having issues with a compiled swf running in 'Slow-Motion' as you put in, on slow or older laptops then I am afraid that is just purely down to bad optimisation especially in terms of game development. Be wise with your graphics resources, use Alpha Channels only where necessary, try to refrain from using too many fastloops in Flash, optimise your sound, optimise your code.

I have made many a game in flash, small, medium and large and have tested with an old XP laptop on top of my other testing devices and I always optimise for the slowest one. It's the same with any platform. The overhead for the flash runtime is only around 264kb (Don't quote me) so the rest of the design and development is down to you.

With relation to the loop, if the game won't run well at 60fps, it more than likely won't run well at 30fps either. If you don't believe me, change it and see for yourself. If it works I'll drop my pants at the next CC! lol; this is based on the assumption everything isn't timer-based :p

If I am wrong I'm sure Francois will jump on this thread in the near future...

[Duncansby]

OK, sure, if we set our sights low enough, we can squeeze 60fps out of more or less anything. But I don't understand why

if the game won't run well at 60fps, it more than likely won't run well at 30fps either.

Surely this hypothetical laptop that only manages to run the loop 40 times per second is going to manage just fine when we move the upper limit down to 30. I didn't think this could be such a contentious issue, unless MMF has some serious idiosyncracies I didn't know about yet.

I thought good optimisation incorporated things like targeting a realistic framerate or using delta time, rather than those things flying in the face of one another. Referring back to my first post, I'm not raising the issue because my game doesn't perform well enough, but because I was advised that I'd be risking more by aiming for 60fps with no exceptions.

[Danny]

Referring back to my first post, I'm not raising the issue because my game doesn't perform well enough, but because I was advised that I'd be risking more by aiming for 60fps with no exceptions.

Ok, so everything else aside and back to your first point, I've made games that run at 30fps, the same compiled version at 60fps. The only absolute difference I see or feel are timer-based movements affected. That is it.

If you're unsure about the FPS and the runtime why don't you just develop your game at 30fps from the start?

P.S
Your optimisation starts with design and implementation, AFAIK nothing to do with framerate and/or delta timing that is contained within the runtime which is more than capable of producing optimum output over the last two years of development, the flash runtime is always being tweaked and modified, maybe something in your code is buggy with the runtime? Who knows... that would be for you to find out from your testing and analysis. My opinion is based purely on my last 2 years of development in flash.

Btw: are you running the latest BETA by any chance? Quite a few improvements have been made over this year to the flash runtime...

[dogzer]

But optimization is the opposite of what you say, Mr. ByteDex! Optimization starts exactly when design of the game ends. It's about getting the same results more effectively, not changing the results.

I haven't seen Lord Duncansby's game, but I assume the design is perfect....at most he might be using biggish sprites for a boss or two.

Granted you can always trim the edges, avoid being wasteful of resources. But lets look for a practical solution here!

Any ideas?