Level editor problems

[MattEsch]

MMF2 is amazing, as are the exporters. If you want full freedom or control you should learn a code language.

I'm a professional software developer, so I do have full freedom, but I enjoy working with people who are not as technically skilled.

The instances of an object such as quick backdrop just work differently in MMF, for good reason.

What's that then? You forgot to mention what the good reason is.

It's no slower to right click and select "clone" than it is to drag an instance from the sidebar. It's just a style of creation that you need to learn if you use this software.

Except you have to factor in the time it takes me to organise that mess of an object list with (buggy) folders. It is slower if you want a well structured app. Also the resizing of those clones will not be simple if you have a grid to fit to (which is very likely if you're using motifs). I wouldn't drag instances from the sidebar anyway, I ctrl drag an instance on the page, size it quickly using the snap to grid for guidance, and I have no new object type to clutter my object list.

Alterable Values are integers, yes, but you could easily just set it to 100*your desired value and then divide when referring to the value. Again it's difficult to do this when its a straightforward editor like this, since in coding you need to specify whether a value will be an integer, float or double, and this software is mainly aimed at people who don't even know what those three things are.

Alterable values can store floats at runtime so the are NOT integers, and I would argue that an integer-only field is actually more confusing than floats only. JavaScript provides a very simple solution, a single Number type (which is in fact a double). I say float but I mean I just want to be able to type in any number, and the concept of types doesn't even have to feature in the discussion. I'd say it's pretty confusing to type in 3.5 as an alterable value, and for it to appear as 3 only after the object lost and regained focus.

[DistantJ]

So go use JavaScript? Or find another program? What you're asking for would require a complete overhaul of a program which has been evolving since the mid 90s, an editor as simple as this is like having our cake and eating it too, if that means getting used to a few things being different I say do it.

Quick Backdrop instances are like any other object, the object has its own attributes, so you clone it to create a new one with different attributes. It doesn't take a second. Instances of actives can be individually altered at runtime of course.

I'm not sure why the quick backdrop doesn't scale to the grid but scaling in general doesn't seem to use the grid as for any other objects it would be counterintuitive, but you could request a quick backdrop scale to grid feature in the owners lounge. Personally I do my scaling using the width and height fields in the properties, I like to know the exact number of pixels. :-)

[Jacob]

You can complain about as many things as you want, but it doesn't change the facts: The frame editor is adequate for most people, but it is not adequate for you. Your options then, are to either reevaluate your standards and make do with what you have or find a way to get around the inadequacies. The most obvious solution is to not use the frame editor for anything you're having issues with. You can make a level editor and paint tiles to build your levels with any features you want. You could use Excel and assign grid cells specific values relating to its tile's status (Sketchy has an example on TDC, automatically handles auto-tiling). You could use notepad with a monospace font and use characters to represent your tiles (As Nifflas does; this gets you out of having to write an extensive editor and you're easily able to modify levels from anywhere.) Again, I strongly recommend using Tilemap (!) to store your levels but there is no reason you can't just parse through a section of the map and render by creating actives or using surface for a vector window. Nifflas wrote Knytt Stories to just render the open window from a level format because the game would be unable to function with that many backdrops loaded in at once. (Also to make it modular, but that's not the point.) Looki put the entire level into Tilemap (!!!!!) and everything worked flawlessly.

Or you could just use individual backdrop tiles and wait for Yves' update that merges all adjacent backdrop tiles into quick backdrops at runtime, which removes all of your quick backdrop cloning and resizing issues. For modifying properties at edittime, I like to create a series of semitransparent modifier objects that overlap the objects they are modifying. This way I can use one enemy object, but have modifier objects overlapping that tell it which direction to start moving in, and then I can destroy these after applying values at start of frame. I'm with you on the Floating Point alterable value issue, but I usually set up my engines to just divide the values by ten or a hundred at runtime. So instead of setting Velocity to 1.45, I set it to a slightly more arbitrary 145 and then in my code just divide by 100.

PS: TILEMAP (!!!11!!!eleven!!!)

[MattEsch]

DistantJ, I am not scaling quick backdrops, I am just repeating them. I like to know that my 32 x 32 tiles are repeated by an exact multiple of 32. I have a 32 x 32 grid. To make sure they are an exact multiple I have to start multiplying 32's in my head. I just think that resizing should snap to, that's all.

I think everyone has missed the point of my complaint here. I am not looking to solve these problems for myself, because I am competent enough to do that. I am just saying that you can't expect me to recommend this product to an important target audience when it works like this and there are competitors which are far easier to use. That's the crux of the complaint here. The user interface is 100% what MMF is about. You might get caught up with ideas about runtimes or whatever, but there are hundreds of game engines out there which will give you cross platform support.

MMF is not simply a graphical coding interface to a runtime, though it is one important element. I could develop a competing solution to graphical coding in a month or so. I don't expect a vibrant community of young game developers to take any interest in it though.

@Jacob, basically I think you're right in saying that the frame editor is adequate for most people. It was adequate, I just think the goalposts are moving with the introduction of runtimes as they demand a new approach due to performance constraints. The mobile runtimes needs the user to take a particular approach if they don't want to be disappointed with the results and the editor should not be at odds with this task. You can't have all of your active objects flying around with collision masks. You can't keep recomputing collision masks on rotation for all of those rotating actives. Collisions should therefore be off by default. You need to use as few objects as possible.

The frame editor is not adequate for developing a 2.5D solution for MMF2. I could write an external editor, but external editors disrupt the flow of the development, they don't allow you to mix other objects easily.

The frame editor just needs to be better, it needs to be extensible it needs to make sense. You absolutely must have per instance values. Who wants to setup a complex object model for each varying property and then try to remember which one is which? You wouldn't defend a frame editor that made you create a new object type for each new position would you? (Which is effectively the case when your third dimension is a property). Why then is it acceptable to fix all the other properties, except for at runtime?

To solve this problem for 3D games I was actually using the layer to infer the third dimension, as you can also put objects in their own layer.

I guess the worst thing about all this is that trying to make an observation from the viewpoint of the potential customer is like stepping into a steaming pile of dog turd.

[Danny]

DistantJ, I am not scaling quick backdrops, I am just repeating them. I like to know that my 32 x 32 tiles are repeated by an exact multiple of 32. I have a 32 x 32 grid. To make sure they are an exact multiple I have to start multiplying 32's in my head. I just think that resizing should snap to, that's all.

Unless I'm reading your post wrong, all you would have to do is click 'Integral Dimensions' which would snap the quick backdrop to an exact multiple of it's original size throughout...
integral.jpg

[AyreGuitar]

Danny - Thanks, I never knew that tick box existed! Perhaps you also have a trick for Active objects to snap their centres/Hot Spots to a grid (rather than the Top Left Hand corner)?

[Danny]

AG - No worries dude. I have been madly busy these last two weeks and I can't remember off top of my head whether there is, I'll have a look this weekend for you!